#hazzy | Logs for 2018-11-12
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[01:49:27] <Lcvette> anyone running a nuc with a 7i76e?
[05:56:43] <jthornton> morning
[08:30:12] <Lcvette> morning
[08:33:00] <Lcvette> hazzy, someone aske dsomething about virtual box on the gui thread i don't know nuttin bout virtual box
[08:33:01] <Lcvette> lol
[08:33:52] <Lcvette> he also said something about missing dependencies
[11:06:32] <hazzy-m> I don't know anything a about VB either
[11:07:07] <hazzy-m> So I guess he is on his own there, lol
[11:07:42] <hazzy-m> I'll double check the deps
[11:42:37] <hazzy-m> Lcvette: Looks like rene is working on the tooltable again, Hurray!
[11:43:37] <JT-Shop> is it broken?
[11:52:58] <hazzy-m> JT-Shop: Yes, but it's always been :)
[12:14:44] <JT-Shop> broken in master? or everywhere?
[12:22:10] <hazzy-m> everywhere
[12:22:27] <hazzy-m> it's not broken any worse than it always was, but there are inconsistencies in the way tool and pocket numbers are reported, and there is the limitation to only 56 tools
[12:22:43] <hazzy-m> He is working on fixing all that, which is very exciting!
[12:27:56] <JT-Shop> cool
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[13:06:54] <Lcvette> WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[13:07:02] <Lcvette> Tool Table Action?????????????????
[13:07:12] <hazzy-m> yes!!!
[13:07:16] <hazzy-m> finaly!
[13:07:20] <Lcvette> that is FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HURRAY HURRAY HURRAY HURRAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[13:07:23] <Lcvette> hahahahaha
[13:07:42] <hazzy-m> LOL
[13:08:55] <Lcvette> hey i have a question for you
[13:09:01] <Lcvette> and JT maybe too
[13:09:16] <Lcvette> the servos on the new little lathe are apparantly PWM controlled
[13:09:28] <Lcvette> is there a mesa card for that?
[13:09:35] <Lcvette> is that a 7i77?
[13:10:03] <Lcvette> i know it is analog but i always get a bit confused when the whole analog vs pwm things arises
[13:11:19] <hazzy-m> Yes, the 7i77 should work with analog servo drives
[13:11:41] <hazzy-m> PWM is just the method by which the analog signal is generated
[13:12:42] <hazzy-m> best to check with JT too though!
[13:13:59] <jthornton> PWM servos? that's odd, usually Pulse Width Modulation is for motors like spindle motors... but I might be wrong
[13:14:17] <Lcvette> these are old school
[13:14:28] <jthornton> I used to have PWM servos on model planes and helicopters and blimps etc
[13:14:40] <Lcvette> little 1/10hp 48v dc servos with amplifiers
[13:14:55] <jthornton> what kind of feedback?
[13:16:37] * Lcvette posted a file: Rhino 1.pdf (13913KB) < https://matrix.org >
[13:16:50] <Lcvette> page 8
[13:17:07] <Lcvette> very short description of the control
[13:18:20] * Lcvette uploaded an image: rhino control.png (291KB) < https://matrix.org >
[13:18:28] <Lcvette> thats the whole blurb on it
[13:18:51] <jthornton> interesting for sure, Peter would be the one to ask about PWM drives
[13:19:42] <jthornton> ah I see it has encoder output so that is nice
[13:19:50] <Lcvette> yeah good call.. i just saw some little cards on the mesa site talking about H bridge stuff for servo control
[13:19:57] <Lcvette> yeah
[13:20:02] * jthornton goes back to chicken coop work
[13:20:12] <Lcvette> happy coopin JT
[13:20:12] <Lcvette> lol
[13:20:21] <jthornton> best to ask Peter on #linuxcnc
[13:20:35] <jthornton> putting in the gable vents today :)
[13:28:30] <Lcvette> just asked it over there
[13:28:34] <Lcvette> at least i think i did
[13:28:46] <Lcvette> not sure if what i write over there shows up or not
[13:28:49] <Lcvette> lol
[13:33:42] * TurBoss uploaded an image: 20181112_190734.jpg (970KB) < https://matrix.org >
[13:33:45] * TurBoss uploaded an image: 20181112_190742.jpg (1003KB) < https://matrix.org >
[13:45:51] <TurBoss> hey whats up
[13:46:02] <TurBoss> Lcvette: working on the lathe?
[13:50:41] <TurBoss> I'm working on a MPG as seen
[14:03:10] <Lcvette> I'm researhcing
[14:12:46] <Lcvette> that MPG looks sweet!
[14:12:53] <Lcvette> looks like a big gameboy
[14:13:03] <Lcvette> :D
[14:13:06] <Lcvette> hahaha
[14:16:13] <TurBoss> yes true!
[14:16:40] <hazzy-m> Lcvette: PWM is the same as analog, practically all servo drives are controlled by a PWM signa these days. There is something called a digital potentiometer which is an alternitive to PWM for creating an anolog signal, but not very common. I think the mesa cards use that for the spindle control
[14:17:04] <hazzy-m> The 7i77 will work just fine
[14:17:20] <hazzy-m> TurBoss: Nice!!
[14:17:48] <TurBoss> ty
[14:19:29] <Lcvette> peter said i should use a 7i84 and a 7i85s
[14:21:37] <hazzy-m> great! he is the one to ask!
[14:22:18] <hazzy-m> I'm using a 7i77 on a 1983 bridgeport with old PWM drives and it works fine
[14:22:31] <hazzy-m> but the drives are noisy :D
[14:22:37] <Lcvette> that would sure make it easier
[14:22:46] <Lcvette> oh yeah?
[14:25:04] <hazzy-m> the drives were always noisy though, it's because the frequency of the PWM output is low enough that it is in the audible range. Newer drives have a higher frequency so you can't hear them
[14:25:07] <hazzy-m> (unless you are a dog, LOL)
[14:25:19] <Lcvette> lol
[14:56:04] * TurBoss uploaded an image: 20181112_205320.jpg (866KB) < https://matrix.org >
[15:39:56] <hazzy-m> haha
[15:40:00] <hazzy-m> fun
[15:47:56] <hazzy-m> My sister and her fiance have a pretty nice condo over some restaurants down town
[15:47:57] <hazzy-m> The coffee shop directly below the condo fired somebody yesterday afternoon, and he was not too happy about that so he came back about midnight and fired them back, lol
[15:48:53] <hazzy-m> ended up burning out three restaurants, but thankfully the condo survived with only smoke damage
[15:50:13] <hazzy-m> The scary thing is that it is a 24-7 coffee shop, and it's always pretty packed even very late at night, so there had to be people in there when he started it
[15:51:48] <hazzy-m> very fortunate that nobody was hurt, and very little personal propery lost, but still not cool at all
[15:53:34] <hazzy-m> TurBoss: Is that running on a Pi?
[15:54:33] <TurBoss> Yep
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[16:48:30] <JT-Shop> Lcvette: did you get your answer?
[16:52:09] -!- JT-Shop has quit [Quit: Leaving]
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[17:03:43] <Lcvette> I think so
[17:04:01] <Lcvette> 7i84, 7i85s
[17:11:37] <JT-Shop> you asked about 7i92 and something?
[17:12:03] <Lcvette> oh yeah if it was ok latecncy wise with a nuc
[17:12:12] <JT-Shop> what is a nuc?
[17:12:21] <Lcvette> nuk?
[17:12:44] <Lcvette> mini compuiter
[17:13:17] <JT-Shop> usually if the network is on the motherboard it's ok
[17:14:53] * Lcvette uploaded an image: image.png (1976KB) < https://matrix.org >
[17:15:07] <Lcvette> NUC
[17:15:34] <JT-Shop> never see that before, pretty small
[17:15:42] <Lcvette> yeah they are neat
[17:16:17] <Lcvette> if these things end up working great with the ethernet cards... thats a gamne changer in my opinion
[17:16:45] <Lcvette> can get them with core i7
[17:16:59] <JT-Shop> how much are they? I found one on amazon for $589
[17:17:30] <Lcvette> you can get a milder version with no os for about $199
[17:20:54] <JT-Shop> time to make chicken salad... that is salad for the chickens
[17:21:03] <Lcvette> lol
[17:21:10] <JT-Shop> you might ask Peter about the nuc he keeps up with all that stuff
[17:21:47] <JT-Shop> leftover lettuce and some of my banana lol
[17:22:10] <Lcvette> i hope that not a metaphor
[17:22:12] <Lcvette> hahaha
[17:31:53] -!- Roguish has joined #hazzy
[17:39:45] <hazzy-m> chicken salad, LOL
[17:41:05] <jthornton> we even had some left over tomato for them
[18:46:30] <Lcvette> hahaha
[18:46:54] <Lcvette> question, can linux use a spindle encoder that is on a non 1:1 pulley ratio?
[18:47:03] <hazzy-m> yes
[18:47:30] <Lcvette> this setup has an exact 3 index pulses per revolution
[18:47:35] <hazzy-m> it's just counts, all you have to do is set the ratio
[18:48:57] <Lcvette> ok cool
[18:49:28] <Lcvette> so it looks like then on this retrofit i may be able to use all the existing hardware in the lathe and just update the controller
[18:49:55] <hazzy-m> the cool thing about LCNC is that you don't have to ask if something is possible, because it always is! LOL
[18:49:58] <hazzy-m> sweet!
[18:50:07] <Lcvette> it uses a single db50 connector for ALL the control connections and i have a pinout of it thanks to a super awesome dude from the small engine builders club i found online
[18:50:23] <hazzy-m> fantastic!
[18:50:37] <hazzy-m> So maybe you could get away with a single 5i25 ....
[18:50:45] <Lcvette> this turret is pretty neat
[18:51:22] <Lcvette> ?
[18:51:26] <Lcvette> single 5i25?
[18:51:38] <Lcvette> would i need more than one?
[18:52:08] <hazzy-m> if all the original control had was a DB25 than you might be able to do it with just one 5i25
[18:52:17] <Lcvette> db50
[18:52:20] <hazzy-m> a 5i25 provides two DB25 connectors
[18:52:46] <Lcvette> but what about the other cards?
[18:53:18] <jthornton> you can use sserial cards for I/O
[18:53:35] <hazzy-m> you may not need them, depending on the voltages. if its all 5v you should be fine
[18:54:25] <hazzy-m> It's probably easier with a daughter card though
[18:55:29] * Lcvette posted a file: Rhino Manual.pdf (13913KB) < https://matrix.org >
[18:55:32] * Lcvette posted a file: RhinoST8LatheInterface.pdf (73KB) < https://matrix.org >
[18:55:49] <Lcvette> scroll to the bottom to see the 50 pin items
[18:56:15] <Lcvette> it is a little confusing on the axis as it looks like there is only two pins per axis for the motion control output?
[18:56:29] <hazzy-m> jthornton: can you use a bare 5i25 for PWM servos like you can use a bare 5i25 for steppers?
[18:56:52] <Lcvette> probably loose some of the protections the daughter card offers
[18:57:01] <jthornton> that's a good question for the master mind of Peter :)
[18:57:11] <hazzy-m> it should only need two pins, since it is probably +-10v anolog signal
[18:57:20] <jthornton> I do know the db25 connectors half the pins are grounds
[18:57:20] <Lcvette> ah
[18:57:48] <hazzy-m> ah, ok
[18:58:23] <jthornton> reading back about your spindle question more than one index per rev means you can't thread...
[18:59:08] <hazzy-m> Realy? I though you could have any any number of counds to thread
[18:59:20] <Lcvette> i was worried that may be the case
[18:59:21] <hazzy-m> what if you have a regualar encoder?
[18:59:23] <jthornton> it would be a gamble as to which index pulse it used for each pass
[18:59:27] <Lcvette> i know mach3 is like that
[18:59:29] <hazzy-m> use the index?
[19:00:01] <jthornton> the index sets the relation between the axis and the spindle
[19:00:08] <hazzy-m> Ah, that right because he does not have an index!!
[19:00:32] <jthornton> oh it is just a 3 pulse encoder with no index?
[19:01:03] <Lcvette> no, it appears that the encoder is over driven for some silly reason
[19:01:23] <jthornton> yuck
[19:01:27] <hazzy-m> Lcvette: Is is a real encoder, or just a notched wheel?
[19:01:47] <Lcvette> real
[19:01:50] <Lcvette> quadrature
[19:01:54] <Lcvette> abi
[19:01:55] <jthornton> rigid tapping would be ok but single point threading is out
[19:02:02] <hazzy-m> A friend has a romi with a overdriven encoder and it works great, but it has an index
[19:02:19] <hazzy-m> Lcvette: That will work
[19:02:30] <jthornton> a single index per spindle rev?
[19:02:50] <Lcvette> the encoder is a normal encoder
[19:03:00] <Lcvette> but it is pulleyed 3-1 with the spindle
[19:03:25] <Lcvette> big pulley on spindle little pulley on encoder making the encoder turn 3 times faster than the spindle
[19:03:27] <hazzy-m> That is fine, LCNC keeps count of the total spindle revs, so it will know were it is at all times
[19:04:00] <Lcvette> even the starting point for threading?
[19:04:08] <hazzy-m> yes
[19:04:18] <Lcvette> how will it know which index pulse was the start?
[19:04:19] <hazzy-m> it keeps count from when the machine was turned on
[19:04:24] <jthornton> how will it know which index pulse to use?
[19:04:41] <Lcvette> wow seems like alot of math
[19:04:43] <Lcvette> lol
[19:04:57] <hazzy-m> becsue it knows the total spindle reves, even it you spin the spindle by hand it will update the count
[19:05:35] <jthornton> I've seen that video too but will it know which spindle index to use?
[19:05:38] <hazzy-m> so with your set up spindle revs is just total encoder counts / 3
[19:06:14] <jthornton> time for a ham salad and no I don't have any swine...
[19:06:16] <Lcvette> ok so say it starts threading on 49,978 index pulse
[19:07:10] <Lcvette> you are saying it knows from that point forward that every repeat pass MUST start on a multiple of 49,978+2?
[19:07:35] <hazzy-m> yes
[19:07:41] <Lcvette> so it would start on 49,981
[19:07:56] <Lcvette> or 84
[19:08:01] <Lcvette> and it remembers?
[19:08:28] <hazzy-m> I am 99.9% certain
[19:08:42] <Lcvette> hmph thats impressive
[19:08:49] <hazzy-m> You don't even need to have an integer ratio between the spindle and the encoder
[19:08:52] <Lcvette> idonbilivit
[19:08:59] <hazzy-m> LOL
[19:09:06] <Lcvette> lol
[19:09:31] <Lcvette> you don't?
[19:09:54] <Lcvette> is it because it will make perfect 3 start threads?
[19:09:57] <Lcvette> hahahaha
[19:10:25] <hazzy-m> hahahahahaha
[19:10:27] <hazzy-m> If you let it run for long enough
[19:10:27] <hazzy-m> LOL
[19:12:00] <Lcvette> i dunno it sounds too good to be true that i wo'nt have to fix something
[19:12:21] * Lcvette uploaded an image: 41625.jpeg (810KB) < https://matrix.org >
[19:13:39] * hazzy-m uploaded an image: image.png (3355KB) < https://matrix.org >
[19:14:15] <hazzy-m> This is my friends romi, I had the encoder off here unfortunatly, but it has a small pully that runs off that larger pully on the end of the spindle
[19:14:39] <hazzy-m> that is a very standard set up for lathes
[19:15:13] <hazzy-m> Lots of people have trouble because MACH3 does not work with that type of set up, but LCNC does
[19:15:23] <hazzy-m> because it is awesome
[19:15:25] <hazzy-m> lol
[19:16:31] <Lcvette> when i say 3 pulses per revolution i mean it pulses 3 times per spindle revolution not motor revolution
[19:16:33] <hazzy-m> Your set up is almost identical, IT WILL WORK!
[19:17:01] <Lcvette> most lathes like that have a 1:1 ration on the encoder drive between the spindle and encoder
[19:17:17] <Lcvette> which is WHY they are driven off the spindle and not the drive mtoor
[19:17:41] <Lcvette> due to any transmission reduction/overdrive and or any drive slip
[19:17:46] <hazzy-m> On tiny lathes yes, but on big bore lathes that is not practical to have that big of pully on the encoder
[19:17:49] <Lcvette> also why the encoder is cogged
[19:18:13] <Lcvette> its done all the time on big bore lathes
[19:18:22] <Lcvette> the belt is very thin and so is the pulley
[19:18:55] <hazzy-m> I've never seen that, but I have only looked at a few large-ish CNC laths
[19:19:08] * Lcvette uploaded an image: frame of CK6132.JPG (2327KB) < https://matrix.org >
[19:19:36] <hazzy-m> I see
[19:19:36] <Lcvette> all that i have ever seen are 1:1
[19:20:24] <Lcvette> im not sure why rhino over drove the encoder, seems kinda silly to me unless it is a really low resolution encoder
[19:20:37] <Lcvette> in which case i'll swap it out for an omron
[19:20:45] <hazzy-m> I guess it depends on the control
[19:21:03] <hazzy-m> how many PPR is that encoder?
[19:21:09] <Lcvette> no clue
[19:21:19] <Lcvette> have not found that in the documentation
[19:21:33] <Lcvette> doesn't seem to get that deep into detail on things
[19:22:10] <hazzy-m> ok, was wondering if they wanted better slow speed response
[19:22:44] <Lcvette> control is a fanuc 6t from like 89
[19:24:20] <hazzy-m> if you think about it having the encoder overdriven is no different than using a servo drive with a reduction, and you know that would work fine with LCNC
[19:24:58] <Lcvette> mmm thats different
[19:25:19] <hazzy-m> I don't think it is
[19:26:04] <Lcvette> it still has a single pulse reference
[19:26:13] <Lcvette> without that it would also be blind
[19:26:30] <hazzy-m> Not relitive to the spindle, there is multiple pulses per spindle rev
[19:27:16] <Lcvette> ok, then consider it more like this, an axis with no home switch
[19:27:31] <Lcvette> because that is essentially what a spindles index pulse is
[19:27:59] <Lcvette> now imagine an axis with 3 home switches and no way to deterimine which is in what location
[19:28:47] <hazzy-m> except that a threading is all relative to some initial spindle location, by that argument you'd have to positin the work just right in the chuck to thread
[19:28:50] <Lcvette> or imagine a rotary table with 3 home switches
[19:29:34] <Lcvette> ?
[19:29:53] <Lcvette> ya lost me
[19:32:05] <Lcvette> the way you are saying linux works means that instead of timing movements off of a signal it must read and count the signal and calculate
[19:32:23] <hazzy-m> which it does
[19:32:25] <Lcvette> for every subsequent threading pass
[19:32:46] <hazzy-m> it keeps a total spindle revs count since the machine was truned on
[19:32:46] <Lcvette> rather then just start the next move based on s single pulse
[19:32:58] <Lcvette> a count
[19:33:11] <Lcvette> but you are saying it calculates using that stored data
[19:33:31] <Lcvette> im not saying it can't just that im shocked
[19:33:57] <hazzy-m> right, I am 99.99% certain it does
[19:34:13] <hazzy-m> if it does not out of the box it is easy HAL logoc to make it work
[19:34:43] <hazzy-m> just make sure you only alow the spindle-index pin to go false every third time
[19:34:52] <hazzy-m> and your all set
[19:35:19] <Lcvette> how do you do that?
[19:36:22] <hazzy-m> just intercept the spindle-index pin, check how many turns it's been since last trigger, and if its been three turns set it false
[19:38:00] <Lcvette> ok so then it would initiate thread pases on a false trigger and only needs to count to 3
[19:38:03] <hazzy-m> actual intercept the encoder-index pin, check, and then pass on the result to the spindle-index pin
[19:38:03] <Lcvette> that sounds more reasonable
[19:38:04] <Lcvette> because its repeating
[19:38:12] <hazzy-m> right
[19:39:05] <hazzy-m> But I am almost certain that is such a common situation that it is already taken account in the spindle sync code
[19:39:13] <Lcvette> so my take away is its possible but get a 1:1 pulley
[19:39:15] <Lcvette> lol
[19:39:26] <Lcvette> hahahaha
[19:39:32] <hazzy-m> haha
[19:40:12] <hazzy-m> depends if its easier to install a new pulley or write a few lines of HAL!
[19:40:29] <hazzy-m> for you it might be the pulley is easier
[19:40:31] <hazzy-m> haha
[19:41:16] <Lcvette> actually i may be grabbing a 2.2kw spindle servo for this and just running it cogged 1:1 so i can make some trick ass shit with the multi spindle functionality and use the spindle servo drive position input option to do some sweet sweet multi axis machining
[19:42:11] <Lcvette> with some little baby live tooling in the turret
[19:43:25] <hazzy-m> That would be sweet!
[19:43:55] <hazzy-m> This proves me wrong, LOL: https://forum.linuxcnc.org
[19:44:23] <hazzy-m> So you would need to use HAL to convert your 3:1 overdriven pulse to a single pulse per rev
[19:45:13] <hazzy-m> That muse be how my friend has his lathe set up, though I don't remember him having any questions about it ...
[19:45:58] <Lcvette> hahahaha, thats my buddy russtuff
[19:46:06] <Lcvette> he and i have the same motor
[19:46:23] <hazzy-m> do I have the same motor too?
[19:46:30] <Lcvette> thats the 1.5hp vector mtoor we got for a steal surplus
[19:46:37] <hazzy-m> nice!
[19:46:43] <Lcvette> yes but the version without the encoder
[19:46:44] <hazzy-m> still need to hook mine up
[19:46:56] <Lcvette> i have both
[19:47:04] <Lcvette> the maxplus and the micromax
[19:47:13] <Lcvette> the maxplus comes with the encoder
[19:47:23] <Lcvette> we got them years agp
[19:48:32] <hazzy-m> I see. I'm planning to use the bull gear on my mill with some automotive gear tooth sensors to amke a quad encoder
[19:53:02] <Lcvette> errrr
[19:53:06] <Lcvette> why?
[19:54:40] <Lcvette> whyn not just grab an omron encoder off ebay?
[19:54:45] <Lcvette> they are prety cheap
[19:54:59] <Lcvette> use a little gt2 timing belt
[20:24:14] <hazzy-m> I could, but that's boring :)
[20:35:36] <Lcvette> but would be much faster
[20:36:00] <Lcvette> ever heard the phrase "pick your battles"
[20:36:03] <Lcvette> lol
[20:36:05] <Lcvette> come o man
[20:36:10] <Lcvette> on