#linuxcnc | Logs for 2018-10-15

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[06:11:51] <jthornton> morning
[06:12:02] <trentster> Morning Everyone
[06:13:27] <Deejay> hi there
[06:17:07] <XXCoder> morning people
[06:19:13] <trentster> Can someone explain to me in a simple fashion how to compensate for lack of accuracy or backlash compensation. E.g. I tell the machine to cut a 100mm square and the sides when measured are 99.89mm
[06:19:36] <trentster> I tried to look at the documentation but I honestly find it very confusing.
[06:20:17] <XXCoder> .09mm? thats within tool size error if cheap
[06:20:23] <XXCoder> just change tool diameter
[06:20:35] <jthornton> the simple thing is to fix your machine to be accurate, backlash compensation can be unrewarding
[06:20:47] <XXCoder> yeah
[06:21:20] <trentster> jthornton: not everyone has the luxury to spend $500 on a super accurate ballscrew.
[06:22:00] <jthornton> it's not a luxury when you want accuracy at that scale
[06:22:31] <jthornton> 0.004" on a cheap machine could be tool flex
[06:22:34] <trentster> XXCoder: You mean just change the diameter in CAM (e.g. Fusion 360) or add an offset in toolpath op?
[06:22:51] <XXCoder> why? just adjust it in linuxcnc
[06:23:09] <trentster> XXCoder: explain how pls (LinuxCNC)
[06:23:18] <XXCoder> if its set to WEAR (ie tool diameter is zero its accounted for by cam) then just set diameter to -.035mm
[06:23:30] <XXCoder> it'll make holes .09mm bigger and outsides .09mm smaller
[06:23:49] <XXCoder> .035mm for inverse size change
[06:24:45] <XXCoder> its a workaround mind, as if your machine has backlash it might not 100% fix it
[06:24:57] <jthornton> so to answer your question there are two methods one is backlash compensation and the other is screw mapping
[06:25:29] <jthornton> which reminds me I need to add to the screw mapping docs some info that Rob informed me about
[06:25:31] <XXCoder> jthornton: yeah wondered about second one. sounds awesome but not sure how one would gather data
[06:26:02] <XXCoder> I know theres settigns specific to backlash but I dont know where it is as I never used it
[06:26:40] <jthornton> 123 blocks and maybe gauge blocks, it does interpolate between points
[06:27:07] <trentster> jthornton: It was just an e.g. The actual numbers vary I have only tested in hardwood at the moment( not super accurate material, I know) and I cut a 65mm square, the sides vary from 64.86 to 64.96mm. This is a DIY built moving gantry router, using cheap Chinese ballscrews, not sure if my expectations are not realistic. Opinions?
[06:27:08] <XXCoder> what sensors do it use?
[06:27:32] <trentster> Inductive proximity
[06:27:33] <XXCoder> +- .05mm
[06:28:30] <trentster> XXCoder: That would only effect homing and not cutting a square part.
[06:28:37] <XXCoder> thats .0002" pretty impressive
[06:28:50] <jthornton> to get the accuracy you seek you need both a rigid machine with quality ball screws... but playing around with screw compensation could be fun
[06:29:01] <XXCoder> +- so total range .0004" not bad
[06:29:16] <XXCoder> honestly homebrew I would expect .001"+-
[06:29:29] <XXCoder> err .001" range I mean meaning .0005"+-
[06:30:03] <jthornton> I don't think cheap chinlee screws are anything near that
[06:30:19] <XXCoder> chin lee brand screws :P
[06:30:52] <XXCoder> trentster: honestly your machine is goof for homebrew. could just comp using backlash or tool diameter comp
[06:31:00] <trentster> BTW this is the material I am cutting, no cute comments about what I am making, it's for the wife to sell. ;-)
[06:31:01] <XXCoder> *good
[06:31:02] <trentster> https://www.youtube.com
[06:31:19] <XXCoder> ya saw
[06:31:41] <rmu> XXCoder: 0.001" = 0.025mm
[06:31:52] <XXCoder> rmu: and?
[06:32:39] <jthornton> trentster: the moment or two view of the machine looks pretty nice, do the parts need to fit together?
[06:33:15] <jthornton> also wood moves a lot as the moisture level changes
[06:33:18] <XXCoder> if it does just make lid and container size difference at upper end of your machine tol
[06:33:32] <XXCoder> it would fit. yeah would need more than that for wood changes alone
[06:33:41] <jthornton> aye
[06:33:44] <rmu> XXCoder: so +-0.05mm is +-0.002", not that impressive
[06:33:49] <trentster> XXCoder: Thanks for the info, but even so a cheap machine should be able to be made super accurate. You seen the guy using on Youtube getting VMC level results on a cheap Chinese 3040 machine?
[06:34:10] <XXCoder> rmu: checked my math yeah acciently moved . to right lol
[06:34:13] <jthornton> most putube videos are lies
[06:34:13] <XXCoder> thanks
[06:34:39] <rmu> trentster: how did you measure?
[06:35:05] <jthornton> so trentster first you need to measure what is the source of the problem then you can address that
[06:35:11] <trentster> jthornton: No the parts don't need to fit together, but they actually do when I invert the heart positive and put it into the negative they click together perfectly with no gap.
[06:35:41] <trentster> rmu: Digital calipers (Igaging)
[06:36:21] <trentster> jthornton: Care to elaborate on the identifying the source of the problem thong?
[06:36:26] <trentster> *thing
[06:36:28] <jthornton> digital calipers can be off quite a bit due to operator pressure on the jaws
[06:36:47] <rmu> esp. if measuring wooden parts
[06:37:05] <XXCoder> jthornton: I always use same pressure I use setting caliper zero to measure stuff
[06:37:08] <XXCoder> quite accurate
[06:37:10] <jthornton> is the problem screw is not accurate, is the problem backlash etc
[06:37:20] <rmu> additionally, the calipers probably are only accurate to +-0.05mm max
[06:37:23] <Tom_L> 33�F Hi 47
[06:37:33] <Tom_L> first look at snow last night
[06:37:36] <XXCoder> depends on who made em
[06:37:43] <jthornton> XXCoder: right and your a seasoned machinist like me and know about that kind of stuff
[06:37:48] <XXCoder> 3 of mine is quite accurate
[06:37:58] <Tom_L> jthornton where are the docs for mapping?
[06:38:37] <rmu> XXCoder: igaging sounds like cheap chinese razor-edge calipers, but i don't really know
[06:38:50] <Tom_L> i've always wondered how that was done
[06:38:53] <XXCoder> jthornton: problem is tool might be off from spec so it might be actually .03mm bigger for example
[06:39:07] <XXCoder> so it might be just tool
[06:39:31] <XXCoder> expensive tools at work is all slightly different in sizes, and cheap tools is worse
[06:39:34] <trentster> jthornton: This is the youtube video guy I was talking about, it looks legit to me. https://www.youtube.com
[06:39:40] <rmu> tool might be off, spindle may have runout, collet has runout, etc...
[06:40:38] <jthornton> Tom_L: http://linuxcnc.org
[06:40:55] <trentster> rmu: jthornton I get calipers can be off, but they should be consistently off no? like each side should be out by the same amount on the calipers. Right
[06:40:58] <jthornton> both mapping and backlash is in the AXIS section of the ini
[06:41:00] <Tom_L> thanks
[06:41:14] <Tom_L> i knew backlash was
[06:41:15] <rmu> accurately measuring the tool diameter also can be tricky
[06:41:26] <XXCoder> trentster: clean your cali blades on paper, hand tight move it out
[06:41:36] <XXCoder> then remember your hand pressure as you set it to zero
[06:41:44] <XXCoder> then you use same hand pressure to measure
[06:41:54] * jthornton uses his shirt to clean the caliper blades
[06:41:58] <XXCoder> adjust it around find whatever seems most accurate
[06:41:58] <Tom_L> i wish there was more on that
[06:42:08] <jthornton> more on what?
[06:42:12] <Tom_L> comp files
[06:42:21] <XXCoder> jt shirt might depost fibers. I use paper squeaky clean, strips oils also
[06:42:22] <trentster> rmu: The calipers are very good in my opinion, not Mitutoyo level but close.
[06:42:25] <jthornton> what do you need to know?
[06:42:58] <Tom_L> how you would go about mapping a table
[06:43:58] <jthornton> that would be machine dependent but the basic procedure could be move to a position then measure the actual and record both
[06:44:17] <trentster> Tom_L: I have tried to read the docs on comp files but it's not easy to understand. Like a lot of LinuxCNC docs, a sample example would makes things a gazillion times easier.
[06:44:34] <jthornton> it has a simple example
[06:44:37] <jthornton> ...
[06:44:54] <Tom_L> i'll look at it more when i've got time
[06:44:55] <trentster> jthornton: Really, maybe I looked at the wrong docs then.
[06:45:01] <rmu> trentster: even the mututoyo is only accurate to +-0.02mm at best
[06:45:09] <rmu> mitutoyo
[06:45:12] <jthornton> must have been a putube video lol
[06:46:11] <trentster> rmu: yes but it would be consistently inaccuarte within that tolerance, my sides measurements are all over the place (cut square)
[06:46:40] <XXCoder> trentster: same tool, same material but considently differnt sizes?
[06:46:40] <Tom_L> what's the + at the end of the first example for?
[06:47:56] <Tom_L> so you would have a separate comp file for each axis
[06:49:10] <jthornton> that is someone editing the docs that does not know how to do so, they were attempting to make the second line be indented like the first but the + is not needed
[06:49:27] <jthornton> I thought I had removed all that crap...
[06:49:36] <Tom_L> :)
[06:49:43] <trentster> XXCoder: No, consistently differing sizes on different sides, at first I thought it had to do with machine being out of square, but I worked hard on getting the machine square and I am pretty darn sure it's square now. Using the 4 dowel hole method each 600mm apart, I get the exact same distance measurement from top left dowel to bottom right and vica versa.
[06:49:46] <rmu> trentster: you can not make machines that are as stiff as rubber make arbitrarily accurate, even if some random guy on youtubes says so
[06:50:00] <trentster> So it must either be backlash or crappy ballscrews
[06:50:01] <jthornton> aye
[06:50:35] <Tom_L> so the file can be as coarse or fine as you want and have as many lines as you need
[06:50:40] <rmu> ballscrews are not 0.1mm crappy, you would easily detect that when moving them by hand
[06:51:35] <rmu> trentster: can you check runout on your spindle
[06:52:01] <jthornton> Tom_L: yes, but the values must start at the lowest number and work up ie if you use - numbers you must start with -0.some value and work up to the largest value
[06:52:10] <trentster> rmu: did you watch the video? The guy specifically explains how he improved the rigidity of his machine. Granted it's still a Frankenstein, but his results don't lie…unless you truly believe he is specifically trying to deceive.
[06:53:00] <trentster> rmu: I lucked out on runout on my spindle. Inside bore runout is less than 0.02mm. The Chinese collets I am using are a different story tho.
[06:53:17] * jthornton does not believe putube video claims that seem too good to be true having seen hundreds of them that outright lie
[06:53:30] <trentster> jthornton: fair enough.
[06:53:48] <rmu> trentster: the video is 1hr long, so i did not watch it
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[06:54:48] <Jin^eLD> hi
[06:55:06] * jthornton grabs a second cup of joe and attempts to fix the comp docs sigh
[06:55:51] <trentster> rmu: rendering an opinion without observing the evidence first, is not exactly empirical. I suggest skipping to the end where he measures his part on his surface plate, last few minutes.
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[06:58:00] <rmu> i did not render any opinions, i tried to be helpful and point out typical problems i encountered
[06:59:27] <trentster> rmu: Apologies mate, I am a bit cranky today. I appreciate your help.
[06:59:36] <rmu> cutting aluminium with small tools and no tool pressure under water doesn't flex the machine but may lead to other problems like excessive tool wear, chatter on the surface and so on
[07:00:30] <jthornton> Tom_L: the limit is 256 lines of comp per axis
[07:00:31] <rmu> np
[07:02:54] <Tom_L> so how would you specify the x y coordinate for a z value?
[07:03:26] <Tom_L> are each of the 3 files coordinated with each other?
[07:03:37] <Tom_L> even if they're nominal
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[07:06:27] <jthornton> a comp file is for a single axis you can't map the xy for z
[07:09:12] * jthornton bangs his head on the table and wonders what is meant by traveling forward/backward in a comp file...
[07:17:48] <jthornton> https://paste.ubuntu.com Tom_L does this make more sense?
[07:18:15] <jthornton> https://paste.ubuntu.com
[07:19:51] <jthornton> ignore the spellos lol
[07:29:36] <XXCoder> trentster: back for a minute, is your machine skipping steps?
[07:29:52] <jthornton> XXCoder: good point!
[07:32:50] <trentster> XXCoder: no, I don't think so. How would one know?
[07:33:22] <XXCoder> not sure as as I un derstand it its based on audio or something
[07:33:29] <miss0r2> I had to make some circuit diagram drawings on-site, a few hours ago. So i went to the nearest A4 printer, and grabbed a stack of paper to draw on. The paper quality was realy thick and nice for a place that saves money on just about everything. So when I got home a little while ago, I noticed that the paper was folding strangely. Apparently I just grapped 500 watermarked printable stickers :D Good thing noone noticed :D
[07:34:16] <jthornton> trentster: after cutting a part return to a known position and measure the location
[07:34:17] <XXCoder> ohh docs stickers
[07:34:46] <miss0r2> XXCoder: hehe yeah :)
[07:35:04] <jthornton> I hate it when I forget a label is in the printer and print something
[07:35:30] <miss0r2> Hehe, I don't realy use labels in the printer. That is why the thought never crossed my mind
[07:35:36] <XXCoder> you could print some stickers over doc reuse it. its expensive sheets lool
[07:36:04] <jthornton> I print shipping labels all the time and forget all the time...
[07:36:08] <miss0r2> :D
[07:36:20] <trentster> jthornton: XXCoder it's not missing steps. I can switch off the machine rehome and cut a new part on the same fixture part aligned with dowel pins to the spoilboard and it repeats every time.
[07:36:44] <miss0r2> I think this must have a nice price tag on it, it has the company logo on each sticker "watermarked" in there. I didn't notice in the quite dim lighting conditions in there
[07:36:44] <XXCoder> need to move it around some more
[07:36:49] <jthornton> good, that is one thing out of the way
[07:36:55] <XXCoder> some losses is compulative
[07:37:11] <XXCoder> make a program to make it "draw" a spirl
[07:37:18] <XXCoder> longer the better
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[07:39:08] <miss0r2> trentster: Now we are both here: :D
[07:39:34] <miss0r2> I can't recall if I ever got my question answered: You wrote me a loooong time ago asking if I was there. Any particular reason? :)
[07:41:45] <jthornton> the stepper test in the docs is a good way to test rapids
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[07:44:00] <trentster> miss0r2: lol. Hi there mate. I was planning on asking you about dual steppers on a single axis, but the consensus was I needed to reload my machine with the pre-release version of LinuxCNC to get the functionality to home each side of the axis to seperate proximity sensors. I opted to just put a single ballscrew and stepper in the centre in the interim. Thanks for remembering me tho.
[07:44:46] <miss0r2> trentster: No problem :) I was just curious. I honnestly had forgotten all about it, but seeing you name ringed a bell :)
[07:49:11] <trentster> jthornton: If my steppers were missing steps I would have picked it up in this kind of operation, right? - e.g. rehoming machine and drilling dowel holes on spoilboard directly over threaded inserts in bottom board. I would have had a misalignment right? http://take.ms
[07:52:08] <jthornton> when you home the machine you will remove any missed steps
[07:54:32] <trentster> I ran the machine the other day, literally from early morning until night, making these parts and putting them in and out of the fixture plate for different operations, never picked up a single issue. http://take.ms
[07:54:45] <trentster> I guess that means no missed steps.
[07:54:59] <trentster> At least afaik.
[07:55:19] <jthornton> yep if you can run the machine all day and not re-home the axes I'd say your correct
[07:55:31] <trentster> Cool…phew.
[07:55:31] <XXCoder> likely yeah
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[08:21:02] <jthornton> geez wtf does this mean lol Units used for distances along the X, Y, and Z axes may be measured in millimeters or inches. Units for all other quantities involved in machine control cannot be changed.
[08:21:35] <jthornton> Different quantities use different specific units.
[08:35:53] <Tom_L> so you can't map the height of a table?
[08:36:32] <Tom_L> and yes your doc is clearer
[08:37:05] <jthornton> right, and I'm still trying to clear that section up a bit more lol
[08:37:20] <Tom_L> so what's the point of mapping Z?
[08:37:53] <jthornton> to compensate for a Z screw that is not accurate
[08:38:32] <Tom_L> it would be nice if you could take an xcomp, ycomp and zcomp file and map it
[08:38:33] <jthornton> you command -1.000 and get -0.995 because the screw pitch is not exact
[08:38:43] <Tom_L> have the x y coordinates known for a z value
[08:38:51] <jthornton> you can probe a part to do that
[08:40:59] <jthornton> that would be a huge file to compensate for every XYZ position lol
[08:41:52] <Tom_L> depends on the stepover for each one
[08:42:38] <Tom_L> the other question is, does it average the comp between points?
[08:43:00] <jthornton> yes it interpolates between nominals
[08:43:09] <Tom_L> you measure 1, 2, 3 what happens to 1.5 2.5 3.5?
[08:44:48] <Tom_L> so skunkworks must have mapped his corrugated steel when he did his plasma comp
[08:45:05] <jthornton> no that is the THC working
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[08:46:15] <Tom_L> that's what led me to believe you could map the table
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[08:47:32] <Tom_L> time's up. gotta go
[08:47:40] <jthornton> me toop
[08:47:48] <jthornton> too even
[08:48:22] <Tom_L> tiny bit of snow stuck but just in patches
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[09:17:44] <Loetmichel> Tom_L: SNOW?
[09:17:58] <Loetmichel> over here in germany its 26°C :-)
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[10:22:15] <skunkworks> we got a dusting of snow too
[10:22:35] <skunkworks> (I think I am near-ish to tom)
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[10:28:39] * JT-Shop is glad he measured the thread pitch of the 30-30 screw before ordering the tap...
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[10:32:49] <CaptHindsight> Sears sold its signature tool brand to Stanley Black & Decker in a deal valued at $900 million last year...
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[10:38:21] <jesseg> haha sears
[10:39:22] <jesseg> when I was in my late teens I saved up my lawn mowing earnings and rode my bicycle to town to buy a craftsman socket set at the sears store - it was on sale for $88
[10:39:41] <jesseg> I still use it to this day some 20 odd years later
[10:40:31] <jesseg> but a couple months ago I wanted a spare wrench to cut in half to make a special tool so I ordered a craftsman combo wrench off ebay for $6 or whatever..
[10:41:10] <jesseg> man I tell you either it was a fake or their quality has plummeted. The edges were sharp and it was just cheaply made. Not that I care, I cut it in half for my project but it was a surprise
[10:43:13] <skunkworks> their quality has ebbed and flowed...
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[12:10:04] <fragalot> hey
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[13:33:02] <Tom_L> Loetmichel yeah, that white stuff that falls from the sky...
[13:38:36] <Deejay> must be fake news ;)
[13:55:01] <CaptHindsight> Stanley is the high end hand tools found in the Chinese home improvement stores
[13:55:10] <CaptHindsight> had to import good stuff
[13:56:58] <CaptHindsight> had a partner there that wanted to manufacture machines without us having to buy a single tool or machine
[13:57:59] <CaptHindsight> he actually thought we could manufacture QUALITY equipment there using all outside sources
[13:58:54] <CaptHindsight> just to prove my point as to how silly that idea was I let him try to build one prototype for a trade show....
[13:59:27] <fragalot> you can get high quality import
[13:59:31] <CaptHindsight> it showed up the day before the show and nothing fit
[13:59:40] <fragalot> lol
[13:59:53] <fragalot> spec sheet must have been wrong
[14:00:07] <CaptHindsight> I spent the night at the hotel drilling and cutting everything to fit
[14:00:36] <CaptHindsight> with my bag of tools purchased at the nearby electronics mall
[14:01:07] <CaptHindsight> spec sheet, whats a spec sheet, you just point and tell them what you want :)
[14:02:23] <fragalot> but from a cost perspective
[14:02:44] <fragalot> how long would it have taken you to make it all from scratch, rather than order the "kit" that only requires 1 night of modifications
[14:02:50] <fragalot> think about that for a minute. :P
[14:03:27] <CaptHindsight> a few days extra
[14:04:04] <fragalot> so really your colleague let you focus on the more important matters for those extra days, get some additional cash in to cover the expenses for his f*ck up
[14:04:27] <CaptHindsight> he was Chinese and didn't want to spend the funding
[14:04:35] <fragalot> also, youtube is really messing me over today, it's the third time I click on a video and a completely unrelated one plays
[14:05:00] <CaptHindsight> bait and switch youtube
[14:07:11] <CaptHindsight> fragalot: do you own any KAKA?
[14:07:34] <fragalot> do I want to know what that means?
[14:08:02] <CaptHindsight> https://youtu.be
[14:08:21] <fragalot> no
[14:08:55] <fragalot> looks neat for shearing PCB's though
[14:09:07] <CaptHindsight> was looking at notchers yesterday https://www.kakaindustrial.com
[14:09:22] <CaptHindsight> poor choice of name for a western co
[14:09:26] <fragalot> lol
[14:09:37] <fragalot> I wonder if they make pull-out systems
[14:09:44] <Rab> A less prestigious brand than KUKA.
[14:10:15] <CaptHindsight> "Hey, it's Kaka!"
[14:10:40] <CaptHindsight> tech support line
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[14:15:00] <fragalot> heh i've got the upgraded version of kaka's G25B drill press
[14:18:39] <fragalot> those prices on kuka's site look surprisingly cheap compared to what i've seen around these regions for the same stuff
[14:21:48] <Simonious> we are considering one of these at the office, got any reasons we should pass it up? https://www.pcmag.com
[14:22:13] <fragalot> it's a dremel
[14:22:23] <SpeedEvil> #reprap also
[14:22:30] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[14:27:41] <gregcnc> all plastic huh
[14:29:01] <CaptHindsight> https://www.xyzprinting.com
[14:29:41] <Simonious> CaptHindsight: that your recommendation?
[14:29:56] <CaptHindsight> I haven't seen any of the color prints from one of these
[14:30:16] <CaptHindsight> wondering which inkjet cartridge they use
[14:31:58] <gloops> ive got a kiku
[14:32:09] <CaptHindsight> Simonious: I have no recommendation for you
[14:32:35] <Simonious> noted
[14:33:25] <Simonious> https://www.monoprice.com this is another one we are considering. Note this would be a 3rd 3d printer for the shop
[14:33:31] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: The vernier calipers in on their website look very cheap.
[14:34:07] <Rab> Simonious, what are your first and second printers?
[14:34:46] <gregcnc> so they dye each layer? 40 patents worth?
[14:35:00] <Simonious> Mendelmax custom and uhm.. I'm working from home today, thinking about what that other one is.
[14:35:24] <Simonious> Rab: ahh and Bibo
[14:35:56] <Simonious> Rab: the Mendelmax is mine and no one wants to take the time to tune it up, it works and I've done some nice upgrades on it, but.. it doesn't get used much
[14:36:14] <Simonious> The Bibo has been treating us well for the most part and makes nice prints.
[14:39:28] <gloops> my Kiku (not a drill) http://pasteall.org
[14:40:15] <Rab> Simonious, looks like another Bibo would be half the price of the Dremel...what am I missing?
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[14:40:46] <Simonious> Rab: nothing really, the guys just like to try out different things.
[14:43:30] <CaptHindsight> HP45 https://www.hobbywarehouse.com.au
[14:51:31] <CaptHindsight> how much would you pay for 5-axis open source CAM?
[14:53:08] <gloops> would need to try it first
[14:53:09] <Rab> The same as I'd pay for open source EDA: depends on how good it is.
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[14:54:27] <Rab> (Good) EDA and CAM are both hard problems, needing a lot of domain knowledge...I wouldn't mind financially supporting a usable effort, if that's what it takes.
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[14:55:27] <gloops> not happening though, look at freecad, heekscnc, blendercam etc
[14:56:10] <gloops> although apparently blendercam does have 4 axis beta kind of thing
[14:56:47] <CaptHindsight> http://www.pocketnc.com is just the machine?
[14:58:05] <CaptHindsight> been working with PyCAM lately
[14:58:18] <CaptHindsight> I have Mastercam and NX by the way
[14:58:45] <gloops> pyCAM usually crashes doesnt it?
[14:58:48] <Rab> I guess Pocket NC farms the CAM side out to Fusion 360.
[14:59:04] <CaptHindsight> heh I mentioned Blendercam in #blender
[14:59:46] <gloops> looks like development slowed right down
[14:59:56] <CaptHindsight> gloops: you have to have all the matching dependencies
[15:01:05] <CaptHindsight> took about a day of trial and error to get pycam stable
[15:02:01] <gloops> hmm shame, a lot of people would have moved onto something else in that time
[15:02:52] <Rab> CamBam awaits with open arms.
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[15:06:32] <Simonious> I use F360, I've tried CAMBAM, but it's been about 3 years now.
[15:15:02] <CaptHindsight> blendercam has the best UI
[15:15:09] <CaptHindsight> but limited features
[15:16:12] <CaptHindsight> pycam without psyco is a bit slow
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[15:17:21] <CaptHindsight> wasn't IchGuks working on the CAM for freecad?
[15:17:24] <gregcnc> pocketnc oushes f360
[15:17:31] <gregcnc> pushes
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[15:19:22] <Joe_Hildreth> Hello all.
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[15:19:34] <CaptHindsight> what to use for 5-axis cam if you are adding as well as cutting material?
[15:20:10] <CaptHindsight> does f360 let you make enough mods to be usable?
[15:22:36] <Joe_Hildreth> Other than a sanity check when using stepconf and perhaps some fine tuning are there any other reasons to take the time to calculate the steps per machine units?
[15:22:41] <gregcnc> does fusion do additive?
[15:23:31] <CaptHindsight> gregcnc: never tried it
[15:26:06] <CaptHindsight> https://knowledge.autodesk.com
[15:26:39] <CaptHindsight> it just gets you a 3d model, an STL for instance
[15:27:05] <gregcnc> right you still use a slicer
[15:27:35] <gloops> quite a few free and cheap addons for f360 for various things
[15:27:37] <gregcnc> theier "slicer" add in doesn't do the same
[15:27:44] <CaptHindsight> have to use something else to control the ebeam, phasers and particle manipulators
[15:29:16] <CaptHindsight> say you have 5-axis that jets metal particles as well as cuts with a spindle
[15:30:10] <gregcnc> oh boy. I have to finish this job, then pack up everything in the coming weeks
[15:30:41] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com
[15:31:17] <CaptHindsight> is there any CAM to control such a machine? besides what Mori must have written
[15:33:00] <gregcnc> "Siemens NX: Complete Hybrid CAD / CAM – Module for additive and subtractive programming One software package for the complete process chain (design, additive process, substractive machining, finishing)"
[15:34:11] <gregcnc> just add it on to your NX?
[15:34:31] <CaptHindsight> i left out open
[15:34:45] <CaptHindsight> yeah NX and mastercam
[15:35:23] <CaptHindsight> all the open slicers don't support cutting tools or >3-axis
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[15:36:31] <CaptHindsight> if I ask or discuss anything in #reprap it immediately turns to some nonsense about smoothie
[15:36:48] <CaptHindsight> or GRBL
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[15:37:46] <gregcnc> are these guys lookign for development? https://3dprintingindustry.com
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[15:48:07] <gregcnc> matching paint https://grandrapids.craigslist.org
[15:48:16] <gregcnc> https://grandrapids.craigslist.org
[15:49:51] <CaptHindsight> yeah, i wonder who the rebuilder is
[15:50:00] <CaptHindsight> repainter at least
[15:50:35] <CaptHindsight> same seller different CL towns
[15:51:21] <CaptHindsight> https://images.craigslist.org machine in the background is also painted similar
[15:51:50] <gregcnc> lol a whole shop full
[15:52:06] <CaptHindsight> there is a CNC scraper in Grand Rapids
[15:52:11] <syyl> wow
[15:52:14] <CaptHindsight> see them on ebay all the time
[15:52:15] <syyl> that color scheme
[15:52:42] <syyl> after a day running any of those machines i probably want to poke my eyes out with a screwdriver.
[15:54:47] <CaptHindsight> https://youtu.be
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[16:18:49] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: ever work with sintered metal parts?
[16:19:14] <andypugh> Not really
[16:21:36] <CaptHindsight> exaggerated pic on the right of sintered metal powder https://www.exxentis.co.uk
[16:23:02] <CaptHindsight> what's a cheap and easy way to fill the gaps with metal?
[16:23:11] <syyl> silversolder?
[16:23:14] <syyl> in a oven
[16:23:33] <syyl> *silverbraze
[16:23:40] <syyl> whatever the right term is
[16:23:56] <CaptHindsight> copper maybe
[16:24:03] <CaptHindsight> silver is pricey
[16:26:00] <gregcnc> i thought it's normal to braze the sintering
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[16:28:47] <CaptHindsight> http://mpif-extension.org
[16:32:57] <CaptHindsight> http://edge.rit.edu
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[16:37:15] <CaptHindsight> https://cyber.sci-hub.tw
[16:37:45] <CaptHindsight> does this link work? ^
[16:38:32] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: Are you in the prototype phase yet?
[16:39:05] <gregcnc> link is good
[16:40:08] <gregcnc> https://youtu.be
[16:42:24] <CaptHindsight> FinboySlick: with sintered metals?
[16:44:14] <Deejay> gn8
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[16:46:28] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: Yup.
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[16:48:28] <CaptHindsight> FinboySlick: downsizing and economizing the tech for DIYers
[16:51:48] <CaptHindsight> gregcnc: yeah if you're going to sinter steel then infiltrating with bronze is at a lower temp
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[16:53:00] <CaptHindsight> if you want stronger than just sintered the parts will just have to bake
[16:53:57] <CaptHindsight> Step 5: bake at 1510 C for 4-6 hours until infiltration is complete
[16:58:48] <SpeedEvil> 1510C sounds unlikely
[16:59:36] <CaptHindsight> if you want to sinter steel then you need the temp
[17:00:09] <CaptHindsight> if you just want to infiltrate steel powder with bronze then you can use a much lower temp
[17:00:37] <SpeedEvil> In that that's the melting point
[17:01:27] <CaptHindsight> bronze is ~1000 C
[17:02:59] <CaptHindsight> what the max temp of affordable hobby kilns?
[17:08:14] <roycroft> i have a small kiln that i use for heat treating that claims to be able to reach 1275c
[17:08:18] <roycroft> i've not gotten it that hot
[17:08:24] <roycroft> and it runs off 110vac
[17:08:28] <roycroft> it's a pretty small kiln
[17:10:21] <roycroft> 1500 is hotter than a hobby kiln gets
[17:11:38] <roycroft> cone 12 is 1285c ,and that's hot enough for firing almost any porcelain clay/porcelain glaze
[17:17:04] <SpeedEvil> Mine only goes to 950.
[17:17:10] <SpeedEvil> I want one that goes to 1100.
[17:17:21] <JT-Shop> mine goes to 2350°F
[17:17:27] <SpeedEvil> (c)
[17:17:34] <SpeedEvil> I'd actually like to play with cast steel.
[17:17:44] <SpeedEvil> So ~1600 would be nice.
[17:18:16] <JT-Shop> I wonder what my melt oven goes to... it's propane powered
[17:19:10] <JT-Shop> so 1287°C is pretty hot lol, 240v 45amp
[17:20:00] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com
[17:20:28] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com
[17:23:12] * JT-Shop needs to put a neat 0.375" hole in the center of a piece of 0.005" x 3/4" shim stock...
[17:23:36] <CaptHindsight> JT-Shop: how high do you think it goes?
[17:23:46] <CaptHindsight> what alloys have you used?
[17:24:31] <JT-Shop> I've just melted lead and aluminum in there, the refractory is not a super high heat one
[17:25:50] <roycroft> make a sammich, jt-shop
[17:26:07] <CaptHindsight> inkjet and powder is too delicate for DIY
[17:26:45] <CaptHindsight> nozzels clog sometimes by just looking at them wrong, never sneer at inkjet nozzles
[17:27:21] <JT-Shop> roycroft: that's what I'm doing with some wood
[17:27:23] <gloops> well they claim the gingery style kilns can melt copper
[17:27:35] <gloops> with ventilation and propane on the charcoal
[17:28:13] <gloops> lot of youtube vids showing brass being melted
[17:28:18] <CaptHindsight> http://www.bigceramicstore.com
[17:28:52] <roycroft> if the hole needs to be precisely centered that can be a challenge
[17:28:59] <roycroft> but the hole itself should be easy
[17:29:57] <JT-Shop> it's just a shim for the bearing block on an old jointer my buddy gave me... the infeed and the barrel were not parallel
[17:31:14] <roycroft> should be pretty easy then
[17:32:13] <roycroft> a gasket punch and a backer block of wood should be fine for that
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[17:33:21] <CaptHindsight> 5KW kiln run for 24 hours = 120KWhrs x $0.14 = $16.80/day
[17:33:29] <CaptHindsight> thats not bad
[17:33:59] <CaptHindsight> ^16.88 x 30
[17:34:22] <CaptHindsight> $504/month if run 24/7
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[17:35:06] <CaptHindsight> and this is for a pretty good sized kiln http://www.bigceramicstore.com
[17:35:08] <roycroft> but it won't run full time
[17:35:14] <roycroft> once it heats up it will start cycling
[17:35:19] <roycroft> assuming you have a temperature controller for it
[17:35:27] <CaptHindsight> yeah, worst case
[17:35:50] <CaptHindsight> hackerspace in Siberia with no heat
[17:36:04] <CaptHindsight> or Minnesota
[17:36:12] <roycroft> if it's decently insulated it will probably cycle on 10-25% of the time once it's reached the set point
[17:36:38] <CaptHindsight> $100/month to run tops
[17:37:03] <CaptHindsight> since you have to cool down and load unload
[17:37:11] <roycroft> unless you "tend" it frequently
[17:37:20] <CaptHindsight> hackerspace
[17:37:45] <CaptHindsight> so random projects
[17:38:05] <roycroft> hackerspaces tend to be full of lookey loos
[17:38:11] <roycroft> so it would be "tended" far too frequently
[17:38:46] <CaptHindsight> "hey whats this switch do?"
[17:38:56] <CaptHindsight> mostly ruin pottery
[17:38:58] <roycroft> "wow! this thing is hot!"
[17:39:22] <roycroft> "when i open the door i get a blast of heat in my face and it singes my hair!"
[17:39:32] <roycroft> DDTT
[17:41:57] <CaptHindsight> bronze infiltrated https://www.sciencedirect.com
[17:45:29] <CaptHindsight> https://www.amazon.com ~$11/lb on mamazon
[17:46:00] <CaptHindsight> 0.044 mm No. 325 0.0017"
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[17:50:48] <JT-Shop> bah my indicator bar has a nick... I'll grind it flat tomorrow
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[18:18:12] <gloops> hmm, wondering what engineering use these new fishing magnets could be put to
[18:19:54] <gloops> 300kg magnet, that might hold a job for machining
[18:20:35] <gloops> https://www.ebay.co.uk
[18:21:14] <SpeedEvil> gloops: you probably want to put it into a properly shaped box, with appropriate pole pieces, and make a magnetic switchable clamp.
[18:21:45] <gloops> yeah something like that
[18:21:47] <SpeedEvil> Simple magnets are really quite annoying to put stuff on and remove them from.
[18:21:57] <gloops> the 130kg ones are pretty cheap
[18:38:01] <pink_vampire> what consider good price for 36"X30"X3/8" 6061-T6?
[18:39:04] <jthornton> wow that will not be very flat...
[18:39:36] <pink_vampire> what do you mean?
[18:40:13] <gloops> 1 inch piece here $500
[18:40:15] <jthornton> pretty big and pretty thin for 6061, all my stock over about 6" wide is not flat
[18:40:49] <gloops> yeah you want the cast plates
[18:40:50] <jthornton> if it's for a door mat that's ok if you want to have a flat part get MIC-6
[18:41:11] <pink_vampire> i'm cut small parts and fly cut all sides
[18:41:31] <jthornton> then why such a huge sheet?
[18:41:45] <gloops> i bought 2 rolled plates, put them back to back you could get a matchstick down the middle of the cupping
[18:41:56] <pink_vampire> how is that for 100$?
[18:46:18] <jthornton> my buddy gets 6061 drops from a place in St Louis for pennies on the dollar
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[19:03:23] <pink_vampire> https://www.ebay.com
[19:04:05] <gloops> perfect
[19:04:12] <pink_vampire> is there a way to know what voltage the fan need?
[19:04:19] <pink_vampire> gloops: I have it
[19:04:51] <gloops> probably 12v
[19:05:52] <pink_vampire> i was trying 12 and it was INSANE
[19:07:41] <infornography> 6v?
[19:08:01] <infornography> Look up battery for that bike
[19:08:03] <gloops> they are fast fans though
[19:08:27] <pink_vampire> I have no idea
[19:10:07] <gloops> well just regulate it until you think its about right
[19:11:34] <jthornton> well I got the digole oled to show up on the i2c buss finally
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[19:16:15] <pink_vampire> infornography: the battery is 12V
[19:25:59] <pink_vampire> is there any direction to it?
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[19:38:45] <gloops> im not sure what the big thing with magnet fishing is, not sure how many valuable things in rivers there, made of iron
[19:38:55] <gloops> probably loads of gold and silver stuff
[19:40:01] <pink_vampire> true
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[19:52:22] <infornography> I worked around a dock for a while, I bet there is a ton of hammers screws and cordless drills down there. Maybe even a couple of golfcarts
[19:53:16] <infornography> People around houseboats get drunk and all sorts of things end up in the water
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[20:53:19] <gregcnc> hmmm....https://www.engadget.com/2018/10/15/dell-49-inch-ultrawide-dual-qhd-monitor/
[20:59:33] <_unreal_> any one seen ziper lately
[21:00:10] <Tom_L> gregcnc, http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81
[21:02:21] <gregcnc> i have a pair of 24" 1920x1280
[21:03:14] <Tom_L> mine are 1920 x 1080
[21:03:37] <gregcnc> 1200
[21:03:49] <Tom_L> 24"
[21:03:58] <Tom_L> but who can keep up with tech...
[21:04:20] <Tom_L> oh x 3 but i only use 2
[21:04:34] <gregcnc> just looking for excuses to upgrade
[21:04:48] <Tom_L> you can always come up with one of those
[21:04:59] <gregcnc> well not good ones
[21:05:08] <Tom_L> optional
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[21:10:15] <gregcnc> this might be more practical for what i do http://a.co
[21:11:54] <Tom_L> mine have dual inputs so i use one for irc here when i'm not using it for cad
[21:12:12] <Tom_L> 2 pc
[21:12:42] <Tom_L> i don't leave the main one on 24/7
[21:19:00] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com all this monitor talk has made me nostalgic
[21:21:37] <skunkworks> https://www.youtube.com
[21:23:49] <Tom_L> took ~10 min to warm up..
[21:25:17] <Tom_L> no solder mask back then either
[21:42:49] <flyback> paul allen died
[21:49:09] <gregcnc> i had a 24" crt for a while, i'd have to think hard to remember which
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[22:52:39] <_unreal_> flyback, does that mean microsoft now has 2 feet in the grave :)
[23:07:00] <flyback> not funny dude
[23:07:12] <flyback> as much as we want to push m$ in the head repeately till we die of exhaustion
[23:07:21] <flyback> very few of them deserve to die alone of lymphoma
[23:07:54] <flyback> if hexchat autocorrects my words one more time I am going to give someone lymphoma
[23:08:22] <flyback> punch
[23:08:28] <flyback> puncnh
[23:08:30] <flyback> hmm
[23:31:11] <MarcelineVQ> pomch
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