#linuxcnc | Logs for 2018-11-01

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[03:01:13] <miss0r> mornin'
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[03:42:36] <Deejay> moin
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[03:56:40] <miss0r> Ahh. the feeling when your newly machined parts just slide together! :)
[03:56:52] <miss0r> But then you realize a pin hole has wandered on you...
[03:58:18] <Deejay> to expect it to be perfect on the first try is little too much ;)
[03:58:48] <miss0r> hehe. yeah. I know what went wrong anyway. but it still sucks
[03:59:41] <miss0r> To safe setups in the mill, I bored out some holes in the first operation, where the locking pins are just sneaking into the side. Then I drilled them afterwards, and somehow feel it is okay to be surprised the holes wandered... bah
[04:00:00] <fragalot> mornin'
[04:00:10] <miss0r> It speaks! :P
[04:00:24] <fragalot> sometimes
[04:00:40] <fragalot> most of the time I get the point across with a series of well timed grunts
[04:00:53] <miss0r> hear hear :]
[04:01:01] <fragalot> miss0r: have you ever managed an IIS server?
[04:01:24] <miss0r> Not in so many details
[04:01:40] <fragalot> because apparently it is possible to poke it in such a way that it's randomly injecting http headers in the middle of the page content
[04:01:41] <miss0r> I managed the host server and the virtual servers running it
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[04:02:03] <miss0r> sounds interresting :D
[04:02:06] <fragalot> :D
[04:02:27] <miss0r> I only have PHP based sites running now. and they are also on the way out
[04:02:33] <fragalot> so why did you decide to drill a hole with only half the drill bit engaged?
[04:02:56] <miss0r> to safe time. so I had to do the part over
[04:03:23] <miss0r> I don't see what other reasons there could be :D
[04:03:30] <fragalot> :D
[04:03:51] <fragalot> I finally made the drip tray for the schaublin
[04:03:54] <miss0r> also, the drill left a nasty burr in the bore. So.. yeah. it is a doover
[04:03:57] <miss0r> Sweet
[04:04:03] <fragalot> welding 0.8mm sheet metal with flux core is not ideal
[04:04:10] <fragalot> I really need to get a new argon bottle for the tig
[04:04:13] <fragalot> :P
[04:04:26] <miss0r> welding 0.8mm sheet with wire is not ideal at all :)
[04:04:44] <fragalot> well the flux core is 0.9mm, lol
[04:04:47] <miss0r> lol
[04:05:13] <miss0r> tip: get a somewhat sizeable cobber bar and clamp that to the back of the weld
[04:05:14] <fragalot> out of a chinese machine that has potentiometers for speed & voltage, except there's no linearity to them at all
[04:05:22] <fragalot> I know that tip very wel
[04:05:30] <fragalot> but didn't have any copper xD
[04:05:38] <miss0r> hehe :]
[04:06:03] <miss0r> Have you made any progress with your cnc as of late?
[04:06:12] <fragalot> I made some space for it
[04:06:29] <miss0r> I guess that is progress. not the kind I was thinking about, but progress nonetheless
[04:06:32] <fragalot> alas the more free time I get to work on it, the more other matters come up that take priority >.<
[04:06:48] <fragalot> like.. *sighs* family events
[04:07:06] * miss0r shakes his fist at god
[04:07:25] <miss0r> I know the feeling. I had to make this stuff my job to find time for it :D
[04:07:42] <fragalot> which is, I assume, going well?
[04:07:47] <miss0r> under two months till the new baby comes along..
[04:07:53] <miss0r> Yeah, I can't complain
[04:08:41] <miss0r> Not enough traveling though. I need to get some clients outside of denmark.. and somehow make them think I can do stuff so much better than the locals, that it is worth for me to travel :D
[04:09:49] * fragalot is past the stage of "not enough travel"
[04:10:11] <miss0r> Yeah, you get to do alot of it ;)
[04:10:15] <miss0r> I would just like a little
[04:10:40] <fragalot> went to munich the other day to have a look at that FP42NC
[04:10:56] <fragalot> agreed on a price, and having it shipped to us in january
[04:11:04] <miss0r> Nice
[04:11:10] <miss0r> What controller is on there?
[04:11:20] <fragalot> haidenhein TNC320
[04:11:33] <miss0r> Sweet. That one is quite capable
[04:11:35] <fragalot> (but spelled correctly)
[04:12:05] <fragalot> got a rundown of the history of the machine too which was fun
[04:12:44] <fragalot> bought by a shop that machined mainly plastics, which at some point had it modified to run 3 heads simultaneously with a new controller, but the controller gave visually poor surfaces
[04:12:57] <fragalot> so they sued the company that did the conversion, and the machine sat in storage for 5 years
[04:13:32] <fragalot> it was then purchased by the current owner, who had FPS over to revert the machine to it's original state, give it a full once-over, and put the TNC320 on
[04:13:41] <fragalot> current owner machines mainly alu & brass
[04:14:16] <miss0r> nice
[04:14:28] <miss0r> So, since the refurb, it hasn't realy done anything hard
[04:14:41] <fragalot> and is getting rid of it because he rotates his entire machine park every 5 or so years, and has mainly hermle machines with HSK spindles, so he wants to get rid of the last ISO40 machine
[04:15:25] <fragalot> it's never done anything hard for most of it's life I think
[04:15:27] <miss0r> makes sense
[04:15:36] <fragalot> original owner did plastics, second owner does soft alloys
[04:15:48] <miss0r> neither ever cleaned it?
[04:15:59] <fragalot> no idea about first owner, but the current one has a SPOTLESS shop
[04:16:22] <fragalot> (and a display cabinet with absolutely insane parts :D)
[04:17:11] <miss0r> nice :D I always find myself gazing at those cabinets whenever I'm at a client with such stuff on display
[04:17:59] <miss0r> have you come across a new tapping head?
[04:18:17] <fragalot> no, hasn't been a priority
[04:18:39] <miss0r> pffft. What kind of nonsense is that?
[04:18:49] <fragalot> used the refund to get that drill press :P
[04:19:06] <miss0r> :]
[04:19:13] <fragalot> which has a nice 100rpm low range & reverse, so it's much better at breaking taps
[04:19:17] <fragalot> I mean tapping
[04:19:43] <miss0r> haha. How fast can it change direction?
[04:19:49] <fragalot> INSTANTLY.
[04:20:00] <fragalot> but it flies your tool across the shop as the chuck loosens
[04:20:17] <miss0r> lol
[04:20:31] <fragalot> that also happens if you switch from 3000 rpm to 1500 rpm too quickly
[04:20:52] <miss0r> how can it do that?
[04:20:58] <miss0r> Isn't it a gear box with levers?
[04:20:59] <fragalot> 2 speed motor
[04:21:02] <miss0r> ahh
[04:21:03] <fragalot> it is
[04:21:29] <fragalot> it's got a 7 position switch for the motor, and 2 2 position levers
[04:22:12] <miss0r> indeed
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[04:34:04] <fragalot> Tecan got it wrong
[04:34:08] <fragalot> it's live long and phosphorous
[04:42:42] <miss0r> sounds like a smelly job
[04:43:47] <fragalot> someone's got to do it
[04:44:11] <miss0r> true.
[04:44:20] <miss0r> I'm gathering forces to do over the part right now
[04:44:26] <fragalot> miss0r: would you get a 5L or a 10L argon bottle as a hobbyist that doesn't currently do all that much TIG welding because he has to pay for those shitty 1L bottles atm that last for like a minute or 2?
[04:44:44] <fragalot> don't redo the part, just make the pin bigger :D
[04:45:00] <miss0r> lol. I can't realy fit a bigger one
[04:45:05] <miss0r> I would get a 10l bottle
[04:45:27] <fragalot> right, hopefully the dealerships should be open tomorrow
[04:45:31] <miss0r> It is not much more expensive.. and a 5l bottle also lasts close to nothing
[04:46:12] <fragalot> I thought it worked out to around 1hr/l assuming a full 200 bar fill
[04:46:15] <miss0r> my tig welder came with a 5l bottle. and I hardly ever tig weld in here. it never lasts quite like I want
[04:46:22] <fragalot> then again, math isn't my strong side
[04:46:38] <fragalot> is the 10l wider, or just taller?
[04:46:42] <miss0r> that very much depends on your settings
[04:46:45] <miss0r> taller
[04:46:50] <fragalot> 10l it is
[04:47:01] <fragalot> at my previous job they only used 40l tanks
[04:47:03] <fragalot> those are HELL
[04:47:24] <fragalot> especially the damn acetylene ones with that big brick inside of it
[04:47:26] <fragalot> never gets any lighter
[04:47:31] <miss0r> hehe. Whenever I have to do more than a single tig seam, I go to my dads truck shop.
[04:47:38] <miss0r> He ALWAYS has two 20l on hand
[04:47:52] <fragalot> as you should :D
[04:48:04] <miss0r> sure.. but I rarely do any tig welding.
[04:48:24] <miss0r> Most of what I tig weld is on my land rover (Yes - I resumed the project), and it is parked at his shop
[04:48:42] <fragalot> :P
[04:49:31] <miss0r> Sadly my tig does not do AC.. so I need to go there to do my alu anyway
[04:49:39] <fragalot> mine doesn't either
[04:49:50] <fragalot> it's an older 200A scratch start DC
[04:50:06] <fragalot> which is great, because you've contaminated the weld and your tungsten before you've even started
[04:50:30] <fragalot> thinking of upgrading at some point, but not quite ready to splurge big bucks on it
[04:50:37] <miss0r> I *think* mine is a 240A pilot start
[04:51:01] <miss0r> well, I know it is pilot start.. not sure about the 240A though
[04:51:08] <fragalot> lol
[04:51:18] <miss0r> It is a Migatronic pilot 2400
[04:51:26] <fragalot> 200A is fine for my needs, but the scratch start gets old quick
[04:51:32] <miss0r> natualy with a watercooled handle
[04:51:33] <fragalot> plus you need to manually open & close the gas
[04:51:38] <fragalot> on the torch
[04:51:48] <miss0r> ... that would make me nuts
[04:51:55] <fragalot> yea :D
[04:52:09] <fragalot> I got that when I was 14 or so
[04:52:31] <miss0r> Then you've had some practice on it :)
[04:52:43] <miss0r> well, potentially, atleast
[04:53:18] <miss0r> I'm holding mine for a friend. He works at force technology. He is living in an apartment, and had nowhere to put it. :)
[04:53:23] <fragalot> around 2000 euro worth of 1 liter gas bottles
[04:53:31] <miss0r> the part about force technology; that is where he got it
[04:53:40] <miss0r> damn
[04:54:21] <fragalot> miss0r: don't worry that equates to like 10 parts
[04:54:23] <fragalot> >.>
[04:55:06] <miss0r> hahaha
[04:55:20] <miss0r> Yeah - nothing sucks more than running out of argon mid weld
[04:55:44] <miss0r> meh. I need to get this part redone. back in a bit
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[05:52:31] <pink_vampire> https://www.youtube.com
[05:53:44] <XXCoder> lol
[05:54:02] <pink_vampire> there is 4 videos like that
[05:54:58] <pink_vampire> https://www.youtube.com
[05:55:03] <miss0r> wtf
[05:55:34] <MarcelineVQ> <_<
[05:56:24] <MarcelineVQ> "... It blows their minds!!" that's not how I would describe the reaction
[05:56:44] <MarcelineVQ> was more like "Oh great a weirdo, smile everyone, let's get the candy and get the fuck out of here"
[05:57:48] <XXCoder> or "whatever lets grab candy"
[05:58:21] <MarcelineVQ> Must we pay the blood price for our boons
[05:58:22] <XXCoder> on subject of candies: Funny for the day: Candies. https://i.imgur.com
[06:04:33] <jthornton> morning
[06:05:55] <XXCoder> hey jt check out link I just posted lol
[06:07:17] <jthornton> looks like she eats a lot of snickers lol
[06:07:39] <XXCoder> yep lol
[06:08:33] <jthornton> cold and rainy here
[06:08:43] <XXCoder> same
[06:08:55] <jthornton> the egg eating chicken gets a new home today
[06:09:40] <MarcelineVQ> an oven?
[06:10:30] <jthornton> no, I'm taking her to my neighbors house to live with her free ranging chickens, turkeys and guineas and cats
[06:11:27] <jthornton> we have different managing styles so she may fit in with her bunch
[06:11:33] <MarcelineVQ> To fight for survival in an all new netflix series: Free Range Frackus
[06:12:10] * jthornton does not watch netflix
[06:42:15] <jthornton> now if I can finger out why pip refuses to upgrade a freeking package I cam move on with progrmming
[06:42:48] <jthornton> damn google search returns only pip upgrades not pip package upgrades :(
[06:44:05] <XXCoder> single finger eh ;) the middle one
[06:44:22] <XXCoder> yeah google have been sucking lately
[06:44:30] <XXCoder> ignoring even basic matches like " "
[06:44:47] <jthornton> I love programming in python but the packaging sucks big time and is forever broken lol
[06:45:32] <XXCoder> python, if its not broken its broken
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[06:56:29] <jthornton> apparently it takes some time before the cache is purged
[06:56:58] <jthornton> python works fine the packaging and distribution sucks lol
[06:58:13] <rmu> pip --no-cache-dir
[06:58:45] <jthornton> Collecting digole
[06:58:46] <jthornton> Using cached https://files.pythonhosted.org
[06:59:13] <jthornton> seems to be using pythonhosed.org cached files
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[07:11:40] <jthornton> hmm --upgrade --no-cache-dir worked
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[07:41:04] <jthornton> must have been a time issue as it didn't work a second time I guess pip expects you to take a nap between upload a new version and upgrading it locally
[07:41:51] <XXCoder> Error bed: Lack of sleep detected.
[07:42:00] <XXCoder> gonna lobe how word bed looks like a bed.
[07:42:06] <jthornton> good night
[07:42:15] <XXCoder> nah was joking about nap
[07:42:21] <XXCoder> though plan to sleep soonish
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[07:52:51] <jthornton> well it's a rainy day and if I don't have to go to town maybe I'll get the louver vents built... I think I have everything gathered up now to cut the dado slots
[07:53:21] <XXCoder> funny how different locations is
[07:53:49] <XXCoder> you gonna go to town, you gonna drive. me, if I wanna go to a town, I gonna drive, to get out of city. lol
[07:54:57] <jthornton> yea it's really nice to live on a dead end dirt road off of a dirt road
[07:55:11] <XXCoder> depends on person
[07:55:17] <XXCoder> I require a broadband
[07:56:13] <miss0r> okay, first job of the day is complete. Now for the second and last.. Problem is; I only have ~2 hours left of the day, I still haven't had lunch, the first job took 5 hours and the next one here is alot more complicated. It looks like this will be an allnighter, again :)
[07:56:53] <miss0r> but theres no rush. I only promised the client I would be there to drop it off tomorrow morning :�
[07:57:40] <jthornton> morning is good up to 11:59AM
[07:58:01] <XXCoder> 11:59:59:59:59
[07:58:22] <miss0r> XXCoder: erh.. when leaving seconds, you go to miliseconds... 1/100 ;)
[07:58:36] <XXCoder> lol
[07:58:41] <miss0r> 11:59:59:99:99
[07:58:42] <miss0r> :D
[07:59:01] <miss0r> meh.. I have other stuff to do tomorrow. I will just get back into the shop tonight
[07:59:07] <SpeedEvil> It's very important to remember that a milisecond is 1/100th of a second, not 1/60th, yes.
[07:59:09] <XXCoder> just knock 1x10^-100 second before 12 pm
[07:59:46] <miss0r> SpeedEvil: Everything else would just be a mess :)
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[08:10:00] <XXCoder> jthornton: looks like you update the docs :)
[08:10:07] <XXCoder> its better
[08:10:39] <XXCoder> part = Capture() I have no idea what this does, but it seems to be important for tool tip visualization.
[08:10:45] <XXCoder> before it was simply no idea
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[08:11:37] <jthornton> for vismach?
[08:11:40] <XXCoder> yeah
[08:12:01] <XXCoder> bleh I have no will at all
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[08:12:14] <jthornton> hmm not me, which version?
[08:12:20] <XXCoder> I want to work on this later lol
[08:12:24] <XXCoder> http://linuxcnc.org
[08:13:06] <XXCoder> it was updated literally today (for me)
[08:14:16] <XXCoder> 14 hours ago. I guess someone read log if its not you
[08:14:54] <XXCoder> my example will be really plain
[08:15:13] <jthornton> I don't see any updates to vismach in 2.7
[08:15:58] <XXCoder> just blocks and cylinder really but what I plan to do is do overall from building vismach file then using it in linuxcnc HAl and such
[08:16:10] <XXCoder> so from nothing to running a virtual machine
[08:17:27] <XXCoder> that is, if I can muster some will lol
[08:17:38] <XXCoder> well time for me to collect some Zs. night
[08:17:45] <jthornton> night
[08:18:17] <XXCoder> vismach is very nice feature, we need better docs to have more people use it and develop for it. later :)
[08:20:30] <jthornton> I just need the information...
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[09:46:22] <gloops> hmm, couple of mm to get off a cutter shaft, no centre at the cutter end possible, 15-20mm to hold it with
[09:47:11] <gloops> job for toolpost grinder really
[09:47:42] <gregcnc> japanese... https://www.youtube.com
[09:49:03] <gloops> or..i could turn a tap on sleeve to hold it
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[12:45:32] <merkatorix> I can start linuxcnc from the livecd, but when I try to do the graphical installation it says "The CC-Rom drive contains a CD which cannod be used for installation"
[12:45:40] <merkatorix> The CD-Rom drive
[12:47:54] <merkatorix> Oh, wait, I might have booted from a USB-Stick
[12:48:22] <merkatorix> I got a dodgy Bios on my J4005N D2P.
[12:49:02] <merkatorix> But the Jitter test is around 26000ns. I hope that is tuneable, after installing it corecty and deactivating some stuff.
[12:49:11] <merkatorix> At least it is OIK enough to proceed, isn't it?
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[13:05:39] <jthornton> yep
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[14:00:14] <jesseg> hey guys I've long been annoyed by things like welding clamps that are just copper plated steel or pot metal or jumper cable clamps/battery charger clamps that are too thin soft sheet copper or usually again steel... And I had the sudden thought that I should get some copper that's good for casting and machining and cast the cable end clamps I want and machine them as needed!
[14:00:28] <jesseg> No more worrying about the part failing when the copper film wears off, etc.
[14:03:36] <jesseg> so is there a particular alloy or sources I ought to check into?
[14:10:14] <cradek> machining copper is a huge huge pain. copper with casting sand mixed into it would be EVEN worse...
[14:11:13] <jesseg> Maybe I'd be better off just getting an easy machining alloy that's mostly copper and machining it out of solid billet or whatever you call it
[14:11:33] <jesseg> or if I could cast the parts exactly enough I wouldn't need to machine it
[14:12:04] <cradek> I don't know about all the clamps you've had trouble with, but good jumper cables ARE available, you just have to pay for them
[14:12:45] <cradek> I have some that are extra fat wire, only about 5 feet long, and take both hands to squeeze a clamp
[14:12:46] <methods_> or maybe just buy some welding ground clamps and swap them out for the junk ones
[14:13:10] <cradek> they always work and I'm happy every time I use them
[14:14:03] <cradek> if you replace the ends on overly skinny overly long jumper cables they still won't work
[14:14:55] <gregcnc> wouldn't it be easier to spend the extra cash on quality parts?
[14:15:01] <miss0r> if you are replacing the cable, be sure to use category 6 cable
[14:15:14] <miss0r> class 6. <.
[14:15:40] <DaViruz> i doubt cat6 cable is suitable for jump starting
[14:15:52] <gregcnc> might be fun to watch
[14:16:20] <miss0r> class 6. with alternating strand lengths to counter harmonic currents
[14:17:29] <gregcnc> I think I spent 45USD for 2ga cables with real clamps
[14:17:52] <methods_> well that's just silly]
[14:18:02] <methods_> you could have cast your own clamps and made your own wires
[14:18:09] <miss0r> yeah !
[14:18:10] <miss0r> :D
[14:18:16] <merkatorix> Is there an easy way to get the realtek ethernet working without having an internet connection?
[14:18:31] <methods_> usb drive?
[14:19:25] <merkatorix> I have one, but is there a driver I don't have to compile? I don't know how to use the package manager without internet.
[14:19:34] <merkatorix> Would be cool, if there is a .deb file I can install
[14:19:37] <methods_> or i've even used a usb wifi that worked with the existing drivers
[14:19:44] <methods_> then updated using package manager
[14:19:45] <jesseg> Unless I'm working on a riding lawnmower, normal jumper cables don't even carry starting current.. you're just using them to put 45A into the battery to charge it a bit :P
[14:20:09] <jesseg> gregcnc, what cables was that that you got for $45 with real clamps and 2ga copper wires?
[14:20:13] <merkatorix> methods_ Idon't have one yet.
[14:20:24] <gregcnc> tha't what you get for free-10usd
[14:20:56] <jesseg> I've noticed of late a lot of regular consumer targeted jumper cables are actually copper plated aluminum wiring lol
[14:20:57] <methods_> well looks like you need to download the right package to usb then
[14:21:13] <gregcnc> I'd have to check in the car, Deka brand i'm pretty sure
[14:25:15] <jthornton> what is the metric equivalent to the weight of an ounce?
[14:25:36] <jthornton> hmmm 2.2 pounds is a kilo...
[14:26:02] <jthornton> so that's 35.2 ounces...
[14:27:09] <jthornton> 0.1 kilo is about equal to 4 ounces?
[14:28:26] <jthornton> I'm chatting with someone from Fife, Scotland so want to use units of measure they understand (a house wife I think)
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[14:28:54] <DaViruz> 35 ounce to a kilogram i believe
[14:29:16] <jthornton> I've watched a bunch of episodes of the great british baking show and they measure everything in grams...
[14:29:17] <DaViruz> oh sorry you just said that
[14:29:44] <jthornton> so yea what it the unit of measure for 1/10 of a kilogram?
[14:29:54] <DaViruz> hectogram
[14:30:02] <jthornton> ah thanks
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[14:39:45] <gregcnc> anyone watch this channel? Machine Thinking https://www.youtube.com
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[14:56:43] <gloops> @SkyNews
[14:56:43] <gloops> Pilot was nearly 10 times over the alcohol limit at Heathrow before flight to Tokyo
[14:56:44] <gloops> wow
[14:58:01] <Tom_itx> they should have breatalizers at every boarding place for them to test before getting on the plane
[14:58:11] <jesseg> wait a second
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[14:58:22] <jesseg> there's a non zero BAC for pilots?!
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[14:58:44] <jesseg> the BAC for pilots should be zero, in which case "10 times" is meaningless:P
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[14:59:12] <Tom_itx> they strip search me when i fly, that's the least they could do for the pilots
[14:59:17] <gloops> nah the limit is about 1.5-2 pints of beer
[14:59:34] <jesseg> For a pilot flying paying passengers?!!??!
[14:59:35] <gloops> hes only had 15-20 pints before piloting a 747
[14:59:52] <DaViruz> zero is an impossible limit for anything
[14:59:55] <gloops> jesseg yeah you need something to take the shakes off
[15:00:03] <DaViruz> like asking someone for tolerances on drawings
[15:00:41] <jesseg> gloops, hahahaha a shot of whisky for a normal day, 2 shots if you're going to have excessive turbulence. I can dig that. I can dig the plane right into the ground for that.
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[15:01:33] <fragalot> Evenin'
[15:01:50] <Tom_itx> afternoon
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[15:05:19] <jesseg> DaViruz, zero is not an impossible limit for some things. And in other cases, essentially zero is possible for cases where that's practical. A pilot should not have a detectable level of alcohol in him when flying paying passengers. You say there are machines that can detect remnants of the alcohol in his breath from a drink he had last year - ok then set a part per billion that is easily a thousand times below the beginning of intoxication. That's my
[15:05:19] <jesseg> strong opinion and I'm sticking to it :P
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[15:06:22] <Tom_itx> meh, they're just live freight
[15:06:49] <jesseg> at least they start out alive.
[15:07:05] <fragalot> not all of them
[15:07:07] <jesseg> They might not land live, and the chances of them not landing live go up dramatically with a drunk pilot
[15:07:08] <gloops> its not like the pilot really does anything these days
[15:07:11] <fragalot> not always
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[15:07:21] <jesseg> LOL pilots still land and take off usually
[15:07:24] <gloops> once hes on auto he can sleep it off for a couple of hours
[15:07:29] <jesseg> and perform emergency landing
[15:07:56] <gloops> hes just got to make it from the bar to the plane
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[15:08:56] <Loetmichel> jesseg: passenger liners usually can take off and land on their own provided the airfields can provide ILS level 4 or so
[15:10:14] <jesseg> yeah they are starting to experiment with autonomous TaL's
[15:10:39] <jesseg> but still.. the pilot should not be even close to having alcohol surging through his veins.
[15:11:10] <jesseg> until pilots aren't needed then I don't care if they drink as long as they aren't on the plane :P
[15:12:03] <gloops> probably facing a little time i think
[15:12:23] <gloops> A British Airways pilot was jailed for eight months in June after he was caught more than four times the alcohol limit on duty.
[15:12:24] <gloops> Julian Monaghan drank three double vodkas in his hotel room on an empty stomach before he was due on board a flight from Gatwick Airport to Mauritius on 18 January.
[15:13:30] <jesseg> well I gotta run. Have fun.
[15:14:18] <fragalot> it shouldn't have to take FOUR times before that sentence
[15:15:07] <gloops> you have to consider that these are hardened drinkers, quarter a bottle of vodka is nothing to him
[15:15:20] <fragalot> that does not make it better
[15:15:41] <fragalot> alcohol does not belong in someone's body if they are responsible for the lives of 100+ people.
[15:17:24] <gloops> we'd probably be surprised at how many people in positions of responsibility prop themselves up with alcohol and other substances
[15:17:44] <gloops> theyd go mad if they didnt
[15:17:44] <fragalot> then they do not belong in said positions
[15:19:44] <gloops> politicians, judges, doctors, theyre all at it
[15:33:52] <sync> fragalot: it's the same old job every day after all
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[15:34:00] <sync> kinda like working a factory line
[15:34:40] <fragalot> so change jobs, don't endanger others
[15:35:07] <sync> #yolo
[15:37:55] <DaViruz> jesseg: well, good luck with that.
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[15:38:36] <CaptHindsight> why the outrage over pilots and alcohol?
[15:38:38] <DaViruz> better not use the windscreen washer on your way to work with limits like that
[15:39:59] <CaptHindsight> we have idiots in charge of entire armies
[15:43:42] <fragalot> CaptHindsight: Thankfully there are checks and balances *cough*
[15:44:53] <rene_dev_> fragalot well, you better not use planes then :D
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[15:45:21] <sync> or doctors
[15:45:55] <rene_dev_> so what do you think the crew does, when they are in another country for one night?
[15:46:00] <CaptHindsight> avoid some viruses and bacteria
[15:46:17] <CaptHindsight> and #reprap
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[15:47:35] <CaptHindsight> hah https://www.vice.com
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[15:55:41] <{HD}> My digital calipers are on the way out.
[15:55:43] <{HD}> Ugh
[15:56:07] <fragalot> either replace the battery now, or chuck it out whilst you still can
[15:57:34] <{HD}> fragalot: it has a new battery and the contacts are clean but it still dims out sometimes. Just put a meter on the battery and its 1.55v and I just put a psu on the caliper and that seems good too. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯?
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[15:59:47] <fragalot> I had one that would randomly reset the reading when moving it
[16:00:01] <CaptHindsight> have one from China that is similar
[16:00:11] <fragalot> figured i'd keep it as a scribe for a while but it's still made it in the bin
[16:00:39] <CaptHindsight> slight twist does is at times also has some crunchy spots in its travel
[16:00:40] <{HD}> I would gladly toss these which have been good for 10 years but I don’t have the $$for the nice pair I would want to replace them with.
[16:01:14] <fragalot> I just sold part of my liver for my tesa
[16:01:24] <{HD}> fragalot: haha
[16:01:43] <{HD}> Whats the other good brand miyotomi? Or something
[16:01:48] <fragalot> mitutoyo
[16:01:58] <fragalot> they have a cheaper series that works well but eats batteries
[16:02:08] <CaptHindsight> my2toeyou
[16:02:26] <{HD}> I don’t want battery eaters.
[16:02:45] <{HD}> Had maybe 3-5 batterys in this thing over the last 10 years.
[16:02:51] <{HD}> Doesn’t seem too many
[16:03:02] <fragalot> https://www.pruefmittel24.com <== all of these except for the last one are good bets
[16:04:34] <fragalot> i also have a few dial calipers from mitutoyo that are quite nice if you don't want the ability to zero it on a gauge block to use on the lathe :P
[16:04:36] <{HD}> Too$$ gonna get a HF one probably and 3dprint “the battery saver” mod for it. Should last me a few years.
[16:08:43] <XXCoder> battery saver mod eh
[16:13:31] <{HD}> XXCoder: yep. Its on thingiverse. Just a thin shim to cut off power.
[16:14:10] <XXCoder> lol ok
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[16:38:10] <{HD}> https://www.thingiverse.com
[16:38:17] <CaptHindsight> removed crunchy area from caliper, behaves like new Chinese caliper
[16:38:44] <{HD}> CaptHindsight: \o/
[16:38:56] <{HD}> What was in there?
[16:39:06] <CaptHindsight> real men use laser micrometers
[16:39:34] <XXCoder_dead> hd chips im sure
[16:40:09] <CaptHindsight> black powder, likely carbon or graphite
[16:40:37] <CaptHindsight> put them down in a wrong spot just once....
[16:43:28] <{HD}> Thats why they come with a case
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[16:56:22] <CaptHindsight> {HD}: the case goes into a drawer, it seen years later as "ah so thats where that thing is"
[17:00:27] <{HD}> I keep mine on top of my case on the desk. Calipers is one of the most used tools @ my desk.
[17:01:11] <XXCoder> mine is in tool cart, both sets of caliper and mic
[17:01:33] <roycroft> minor upate, in fairness to schaller
[17:01:39] <roycroft> update, rather
[17:01:50] <roycroft> lower in the box that i received the bins were more uniform in size
[17:02:16] <roycroft> and when i contacted them they said they would send me replacements for the oddly-sized ones, and that they should always be more uniform than those
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[17:17:43] <{HD}> roycroft: what kind of bins?
[17:18:32] <{HD}> https://i.imgur.com seems to have fixed the issue. Maybe somekind of short caused by the battery cover...
[17:19:36] <roycroft> http://www.schallercorporation.com
[17:19:41] <roycroft> red bins :)
[17:20:21] <{HD}> roycroft: nice! That would be handy.
[17:22:52] <roycroft> yeah, i have a wall full of bins like these currently:
[17:22:55] <roycroft> https://www.amazon.com
[17:23:02] <roycroft> and i need something more space-efficient
[17:23:13] <roycroft> so i'm building cabinets for my fasteners/misc. hardware
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[17:23:39] <roycroft> plus, i want to recover some of that wall space to store my woodworking clamps
[17:25:23] <{HD}> I cant go to amazon. I think they block my ip/dns...
[17:26:35] <{HD}> roycroft: are those bins designed for a particular drawer or toolchest?
[17:26:55] <roycroft> no, they're for whatever you want to use them for
[17:27:12] <{HD}> I use those akromills drawers for my electronics and stanley cases for my hardware.
[17:30:13] <roycroft> http://www.zymurgasm.com
[17:30:20] <roycroft> you can see the wall-mounted bins in the background
[17:31:18] <roycroft> and you can see a cabinet full of toolboxes underneath them
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[17:31:39] <roycroft> i'm going to cut the shelves out of that cabinet, and insert some new drawer cabinets with those red bins underneath it
[17:31:44] <{HD}> Yea. Thats about how mine look. Never been super happy with it. But they are cheap and easy. Whats in the ‘keg?’?
[17:32:07] <roycroft> that's part of my brew system
[17:32:14] <roycroft> the picture was taken when i was constructing it
[17:33:12] <roycroft> http://www.zymurgasm.com
[17:33:22] <roycroft> those are some pictures of the system as it's more complete
[17:34:29] <{HD}> roycroft: wow that looks pro. Do you make and sell beer?
[17:34:35] <roycroft> yes and no
[17:34:53] <roycroft> i don't want the headache of dealing with the OLCC and ATF in order to be able to sell it
[17:34:59] <roycroft> so i just make it and share it with my friends
[17:35:09] <roycroft> i also teach brewing classes
[17:35:29] <roycroft> yes, my brew system would be a nice pilot system for a microbrewery
[17:35:38] <roycroft> it's too small to make enough to sell though
[17:36:03] <roycroft> imo, one needs a brewhouse capacity of at least 1 barrel to even consider being commercially viable
[17:36:18] <roycroft> and preferably fermentors with a 3 barrel capacity
[17:36:38] <{HD}> I always wanted to make beer. I made mead once and I make practically non-alcoholic ginger ale but never beer.
[17:36:44] <roycroft> it's just not economically feasible on a smaller scale than that
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[17:37:06] <roycroft> it takes six to eight hours to brew a gallon of beer
[17:37:16] <roycroft> it takes six to eight hours to brew a barrel of beer
[17:37:28] <roycroft> it takes six to eight hours to brew 500 barrels of beer
[17:37:40] <roycroft> time is money
[17:37:57] <JT-Shop> it takes 6-8 hours to brew a gallon of beer
[17:38:13] <DaViruz> 6-8 hours of beer on a wall.
[17:38:18] <DaViruz> no that's not right
[17:39:35] <roycroft> anyway, after my conversation with schaller, i'm convinced that theirs is a really good product
[17:39:53] <roycroft> and that if there are any anomolies with an order in the future, they will take care of things
[17:42:18] <{HD}> I wonder if it would be cost-effective to 3-D print bins. I guess it’s entirely dependent on how many needs to be made
[17:46:52] <roycroft> i need ~3000 in total
[17:47:03] <roycroft> and i hate the look of 3d printed stuff
[17:47:12] <roycroft> so it's highly unlikely that i would do that
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[17:59:21] <Deejay> gn8
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[18:02:32] <ronox> heyo, can anyone give me some advice on buying my first mill? im stuuck between getting a loan for a tormach or just outright buying a second hand one and putting cnc on it later
[18:03:30] <roycroft> do you want to learn how to build a cnc mill or do you just want to make parts?
[18:03:32] <roycroft> or both?
[18:04:02] <ronox> i want something reliable so probably best i buy a proper one
[18:04:16] <ronox> i also dont have the time to build one
[18:04:28] <Glorfindel> wait you can build one
[18:04:31] <roycroft> shop cnc conversions can be rock solid reliable
[18:04:42] <roycroft> it sounds like you just want to make parts
[18:04:50] <ronox> yep
[18:04:51] <roycroft> so if you have the budget, it would probably be best to at least start with a tormach
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[18:04:57] <roycroft> you might look at a smallish one
[18:05:00] <ronox> oh really?
[18:05:01] <roycroft> get going on it
[18:05:06] <ronox> i was told tormach is shit
[18:05:18] <ronox> but, i think the people were also highly biased
[18:05:34] <roycroft> and then decide if you need something bigger, whether to roll your own or buy a bigger turnkey machine
[18:05:53] <roycroft> there are jobber shops all over the place that use tormach all day long, every day, to make money
[18:05:58] <ronox> bigger in what way? like milling size?
[18:06:11] <roycroft> capacity, mass, power
[18:06:17] <ronox> or, is there some inherent benefit to larger mills?
[18:06:24] <roycroft> yes, they weigh a lot more
[18:06:28] <ronox> yeah i wont need to make anything huge
[18:06:32] <ronox> or fast
[18:06:42] <roycroft> and all other factors being equal, will be able to hold tighter tolerances
[18:06:50] <ronox> oh
[18:07:03] <roycroft> vibration is bad when you're trying to hold tenths, mmkay?
[18:07:05] <ronox> is there a way to quantify the tormachs limits?
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[18:07:13] <ronox> 10ths?
[18:07:22] <roycroft> 0.0001"
[18:07:36] <ronox> oh
[18:07:57] <ronox> do you know anything about the differences between the PCNC440 and 1100?
[18:07:58] <roycroft> 0.003" is not hard to hold with a small, lightweight mill
[18:08:08] <roycroft> better than that and mass is definitely your friend
[18:08:21] <roycroft> i don't know anything about tormach model numbers
[18:08:33] <roycroft> if you're really interested in one i would suggest you contact tormach
[18:08:35] <ronox> theres only 2 tormachs as far as i know
[18:08:43] <ronox> the 440 and 1100
[18:08:50] <roycroft> they likely have a list of customers who would be willing to discuss their experiences with you
[18:08:55] <ronox> at least, diy range ones
[18:09:00] <ronox> oh
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[18:10:09] <ronox> someone once told me when they got their tormach it needed like months of adjustments or something to be "usable" any idea what thats about?
[18:10:12] <roycroft> will you be machining steel?
[18:10:21] <ronox> id like to yes
[18:10:32] <ronox> but mostly alu
[18:10:33] <roycroft> then get a big, heavy mill if you can
[18:11:08] <ronox> so, not a tormach
[18:11:33] <roycroft> a tormach (or any cnc mill) that takes months to dial in most likely demonstrates an operator who is not very skilled at cnc machining
[18:11:45] <ronox> starting out i realized i dont especially need a cnc, a hand operated one is fine
[18:11:56] <sync> they are not bad machines tbh
[18:12:05] <roycroft> there's a guy who is, or at least used to be, a big tormach advocate on teh youtube
[18:12:09] <roycroft> nyccnc i think he goes by
[18:12:13] <roycroft> go watch some of his videos
[18:12:20] <sync> they get a bad rep but for what they cost they are fine
[18:12:21] <ronox> and theres a lot available, but i have no idea how to cmpare them, like, theres one thats highly regarded but it was build in 1954
[18:12:36] <ronox> bad rep for what?
[18:12:57] <roycroft> sync: i am not putting down tormach at all (and i don't thin you're suggesting i am)
[18:13:06] <roycroft> but they are fairly lightweight machines
[18:13:11] <roycroft> they do great with aluminium
[18:13:36] <roycroft> which is probably what 90+ percent of folks machine with them
[18:13:43] <roycroft> most of the rest machine plastics
[18:13:51] <ronox> visa vi steel, i need something that CAN do steel, like, for simple load bearing parts
[18:14:03] <roycroft> you really need something that's bridgeport class at least in order to efficiently machine steel
[18:14:05] <ronox> or stupiidly high module gears
[18:14:18] <sync> not really ronox
[18:14:19] <ronox> like M2 or 3 or something
[18:14:21] <roycroft> ronox: if it's just occasional machining of small parts then don't spend a bunch of money on a giant machine
[18:14:24] <sync> they will do fine after all
[18:14:35] <sync> I mean, you can always go slower
[18:14:35] <roycroft> get something that works well for the majority of your work
[18:14:45] <roycroft> and when you need to do steel, just take light passes and know it's going to take a while
[18:14:51] <ronox> majority is aluminium, mostly i just want the option for steel
[18:15:02] <ronox> yeah i dont care if it takes a while
[18:15:15] <roycroft> especially since you're not manually operating the machine
[18:15:21] <ronox> oh, question, does anyone anywhere ever smelt their own blocks of metal?
[18:15:40] <roycroft> lots of people all over the world do
[18:15:46] <ronox> and now that you mention it, once CNC rigged, can a machine still be hand operated?
[18:15:49] <ronox> oh neat
[18:16:05] <roycroft> it's generally difficult to do manual machining with a cnc mill
[18:16:11] <ronox> i can get a lot of scrap alu but buying blocks is a tad bit expensive for me here
[18:16:16] <ronox> i see
[18:16:24] <ronox> what about manual electronic control?
[18:16:32] <roycroft> yes, you can do that quite easily
[18:16:36] <ronox> oh good
[18:17:07] <roycroft> manual mills generally have acme thread screws, which have a fair amount of friction but are usually not terribly precise
[18:17:22] <roycroft> cnc mills generally have ball screws which are extremely low friction and usually much more precise
[18:17:34] <ronox> oof
[18:17:45] <roycroft> but the problem with ball screws is that they are so friction-fee that they tend to drift when doing manual milling
[18:17:50] <ronox> so, if i go manual mill, make sure has ball screws?
[18:18:02] <ronox> or is that unlikely
[18:18:09] <roycroft> i.e. if you set x and y, and are cranking on the x handwheel, your y might drift due to the force of the cutter
[18:18:25] <ronox> yeah i get it
[18:18:26] <roycroft> if you get a manual mill you want to get one without ball screws
[18:18:30] <ronox> the cutter moves the bed
[18:18:34] <roycroft> right
[18:18:35] <ronox> oh
[18:18:45] <roycroft> you can lock it down, of course
[18:18:50] <ronox> so they dont like, have artifical friction addons for ball screws?
[18:19:11] <roycroft> i'll say that manual milling on a cnc mill, IF the cnc mill even has the hand cranks, is awkward at best
[18:19:17] <roycroft> most cnc mills don't have hand cranks though
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[18:19:35] <ronox> understood, i think i can manage fine just doing manual electronically
[18:19:40] <roycroft> cnc-converted manual mills almost always have the drive motors mounted where the had cranks used to be
[18:19:47] <ronox> thats a shame though
[18:19:52] -!- MattyMatt has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
[18:20:20] <Tom_itx> i use the pendant for manual
[18:20:29] <roycroft> right, that's what i suggested
[18:20:39] <roycroft> you can also write bits of g-code on the fly
[18:20:42] <ronox> so, odds are, i probably wont be able to match a tormach from most any old manual mill i convert
[18:20:47] <Tom_itx> i do that as well
[18:20:49] <ronox> oh yeah true
[18:20:57] <ronox> yeah g code isnt that hard
[18:21:17] <ronox> the firmware can handle stuff like travel speed, accel and etc
[18:21:18] <roycroft> i don't know what you mean by that match a tormach from a manual mill bit
[18:21:49] <roycroft> if you convert a manual mill to cnc you will almost certainly want to replace the acme screws with ball screws
[18:21:54] <ronox> i mean in terms of potential quality as is without modifying it
[18:22:12] <ronox> anything else? or is that just it?
[18:22:14] <roycroft> quality is in the hands of the operator, not inherent in the machine :)
[18:22:48] <ronox> oh
[18:22:58] <roycroft> you can make crap parts from a 7-figure mill
[18:23:16] <roycroft> and you can make beautiful, precise parts on an old, beat-up manual mill
[18:23:38] <roycroft> if the mill is old and worn out it can be quite challengint to make nice parts with it
[18:23:39] <ronox> im liking the idea of 2nd hand mills to convert just because occasionally people will sell theirs with a bunch of tools and accessories for only $2k
[18:23:53] <roycroft> sure
[18:23:58] <ronox> how much parts on a mill can be remade with the mill?
[18:24:01] <roycroft> and if the mill is fairly tight that can be a good deal
[18:24:08] <roycroft> then spend another $3k on the cnc conversion
[18:24:15] <roycroft> and you have yourself a nice bridgeport-class cnc machine
[18:24:46] <ronox> how do i tell if a mill is good or not, if it comes to the point i am turning up to the place and checking it before i pay
[18:24:51] <ronox> for a 2nd hand one
[18:24:55] <roycroft> if i'm honest
[18:25:03] <roycroft> you seem to not have a lot of experience
[18:25:04] <sync> that is quite difficult if you don't know what you are doing
[18:25:06] <ronox> like, is there a standardized test or something?
[18:25:17] <sync> tbh I would just get a tormach and see how it works for you
[18:25:20] <roycroft> so the thing to do is establish a relationship with an experienced machinist
[18:25:36] <roycroft> and have that person help you evaluate machines that you might want to purchase
[18:25:40] <ronox> that wont be possible
[18:26:07] <roycroft> if that's not possible then purchasing a turn-key brand new machine might be your best option
[18:26:15] <ronox> ill be driving up/down from queensland to victoria in december, so, that accounts for a route that can get me to 90% of all for sale cnc mills in the country
[18:26:19] <roycroft> such as the aforementioned tormach machines
[18:26:25] <roycroft> oh
[18:26:32] <roycroft> so you use those funny, worthless dollars
[18:26:44] <roycroft> so now it's AUD$3k to match US$2k
[18:26:47] <ronox> yeah
[18:26:48] <roycroft> and double that price
[18:26:57] <roycroft> because everything costs 2x as much in australia
[18:26:57] <ronox> i remember back when it was the other way around in like 2008
[18:27:07] <gloops> whats this mill for making?
[18:27:14] <ronox> im an engineer
[18:27:22] <ronox> i need things
[18:27:29] <roycroft> so you're building choo-choos
[18:27:31] <roycroft> :)
[18:27:34] <ronox> and fdm printers can only make so much
[18:27:45] <gloops> old bridgeport
[18:27:58] <ronox> what exactly is a bridgeport?
[18:28:06] <roycroft> gloops: ronox knows nothing about milling machines
[18:28:16] <roycroft> and wants to primarily machine aluminium
[18:28:22] <roycroft> a bridgeport would be a bad idea
[18:28:26] <roycroft> a used one especially
[18:28:33] <gloops> bridgeport is a brand, a trusted marque in the world of milling
[18:28:54] <roycroft> bridgeport are a brand of mill whose machines were the "standard" for small job shops
[18:29:01] <ronox> i see
[18:29:06] <roycroft> bridgeports have been copied by dozens of other manufactures
[18:29:34] <roycroft> when i say "bridgeport class" i mean a machine roughly like a bridgeport
[18:30:25] <roycroft> a proper knee mill, with a table about 40x125cm, weight of about a ton, motor <3hp
[18:30:38] <gloops> https://www.ebay.co.uk
[18:30:49] <roycroft> ring up tormach
[18:30:56] <roycroft> i'm sure they have a headquarters in australia
[18:30:58] <gloops> £1600 you can do all the milling you want
[18:31:27] <roycroft> go on a road trip to sydney, brisbane, perth, or wherever they are that is closest to you
[18:31:33] <roycroft> have them show you their stuff
[18:31:36] <ronox> ah i see
[18:31:38] <roycroft> but in the meantime
[18:31:45] <roycroft> as i suggested earlier, go watch some youtube videos
[18:31:52] <roycroft> that nyccnc guy would be a good start
[18:32:07] <roycroft> he is, or at least was, mr tormach for quite a while
[18:32:12] <Tom_itx> what kind of engineer doesn't know about bridgeport? :)
[18:32:15] <sync> roycroft: they actually don't
[18:32:15] <roycroft> and he has videos going back to when he got his first cnc mill
[18:32:26] <ronox> what range of rpm would i need?
[18:32:33] <ronox> for smaller bits
[18:32:35] <Tom_itx> 0-10k
[18:32:40] <roycroft> depends on the material and the cutters :)
[18:32:44] <ronox> bridgeport only goes to 2-3k
[18:32:48] <roycroft> right
[18:32:54] <roycroft> because they're made for steel
[18:33:00] <roycroft> you can replace the spindle though
[18:33:08] <roycroft> or mount a second spindle that has higher rpm
[18:33:16] <ronox> ah ok
[18:33:24] <roycroft> engineer != machinist
[18:33:30] <ronox> i know
[18:33:41] <roycroft> that was directed towards tom_itx :)
[18:33:44] <ronox> im an engineering student
[18:33:51] <Tom_itx> what field?
[18:33:54] <ronox> electrical engineer
[18:33:59] <Tom_itx> my 2 kids are going for mechanical
[18:34:08] <roycroft> even more reason to not know about milling machines
[18:34:09] <ronox> although at this point ive done the same as any other
[18:34:25] <roycroft> honestly, you're six months of research away from knowing what you want
[18:34:33] <ronox> my degree is morso for the knowledge, for myself, than to fit a position
[18:34:35] <roycroft> if you just want to make parts
[18:35:06] <Tom_itx> ronox where you at?
[18:35:09] <ronox> i want to make a living inventing/making things.
[18:35:11] <ronox> ?
[18:35:20] <ronox> geographically or?
[18:35:23] <Tom_itx> yeah
[18:35:31] <ronox> north queensland
[18:35:35] <ronox> mackay
[18:35:41] <Tom_itx> ahh cool
[18:35:50] <ronox> its between rockhampton and townsville
[18:35:57] <ronox> so, nothing there just about
[18:35:58] <Tom_itx> rifraf was near gold coast
[18:36:05] <roycroft> my strong suggestion is that you take a couple machining classes
[18:36:20] <roycroft> learn how to manually machine on an engine lathe and a bridgeport class vertical mill
[18:36:25] <ronox> my grandpa has a mill
[18:36:29] <roycroft> just to get used to working with the materials, and with feeds and speeds
[18:36:34] <ronox> ill be visiting him on this trip im taking
[18:36:37] <Tom_itx> tell him to teach you everything he knows
[18:36:50] <roycroft> after you have a few months of that under your belt you'll be able to answer many of your own questions about the cnc machine
[18:36:52] <ronox> he only recently got the mill, knew a place that had to close down
[18:36:59] <Tom_itx> alot of that won't be found in a book
[18:37:04] <Tom_itx> oh
[18:37:06] <roycroft> folks here will be happy to answer questions that we can
[18:37:19] <roycroft> but at the end of the day a lot of your questions will only be able to be answered by you
[18:37:25] <ronox> i guess though once i see what a mill can do ill find out if its enough for what i want
[18:37:33] <roycroft> no
[18:37:49] <roycroft> after someone demos a mill for you you'll have a better idea if it will be suitable
[18:37:55] <ronox> oh
[18:37:57] <roycroft> just seeing it will tell you nothing
[18:38:05] <ronox> by see i meant using it myself
[18:38:10] <roycroft> ok
[18:38:14] <roycroft> that's fair
[18:38:27] <ronox> i have an idea of what i want out of a mill
[18:38:47] <roycroft> but nobody is going to let you touch their mill if you have no experience with one, except in a classroom setting with an instructor observing :)
[18:39:10] <ronox> i should have used the mill back at highschool :(
[18:39:21] <roycroft> it's never too late to learn!
[18:39:27] <roycroft> especially if you're still in uni
[18:39:30] <ronox> i was the only student, everyone else dropped out so i got to mess with the plasma cutter
[18:39:32] <roycroft> you're just a young whippersnapper
[18:39:42] <ronox> not in uni anymore though
[18:39:48] <ronox> well, not enrolled in new classes
[18:39:51] <roycroft> oh, i thought you were
[18:39:52] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81
[18:40:01] <roycroft> at any rate, you're still young
[18:40:02] <Tom_itx> one i built from scraps
[18:40:05] <ronox> i can re-enrol, its just a sign up
[18:40:06] <ronox> ooh
[18:40:58] <roycroft> for those who came in late, i asked ronox early on if the goal was to learn how to build a cnc mill or to just make parts, and the answer was "make parts"
[18:41:07] <roycroft> which is why i've been talking mostly about a turn-key solution
[18:41:21] <Tom_itx> i haven't read any of it
[18:41:30] <roycroft> you know the gist of it now :)
[18:42:17] <roycroft> the intial question was basically "i want to get a cnc mill and i don't know if i should get tormach or a used machine to convert. please help."
[18:42:33] <roycroft> there are other small turn-key mills besides tormach, btw
[18:42:41] <roycroft> i don't know what's available in australia
[18:42:59] <roycroft> you might see if there's a makerspace you can visit/join who have a cnc mill
[18:43:01] <Tom_itx> ronox, some yt of where it's been so far
[18:43:03] <Tom_itx> https://www.youtube.com
[18:43:14] <ronox> by the way, i know this is probably a dumb question but, is it possible to make some decent side cash from a CNC making and selling certain things like on ebay
[18:43:17] <roycroft> you could get your feet wet using a makerspace machine before you make the big plunge
[18:43:29] <Tom_itx> if you're good at it
[18:43:41] <ronox> now and then i see stupid simple objects that cost 100s
[18:43:47] <Tom_itx> you can sell a rock on ebay
[18:43:55] <ronox> i know but people buy these
[18:44:06] <roycroft> as i said before, in a slightly different context,that is a function of the operator, not the machine
[18:44:45] <ronox> occasionally at my work we order in something expensive that might be an alu plate with 2 holes and a single groove cut into it and thats $500
[18:45:08] <roycroft> don't think you're going to spend $4k on a cnc mill, set it up in your shed, spend a couple hours figuring it out, and then raking in $1k/week on ebay sales of the parts you make
[18:45:12] <Tom_itx> what industry?
[18:45:31] <ronox> gas detection and other similar equipment
[18:45:41] <ronox> dust monitoring, chemical sampling
[18:46:02] <ronox> some of the equipment use these stupid simple attachments that cost an arm and a leg
[18:46:02] <roycroft> if you're going to make parts for equipment like that, make sure you have a *LOT* of liability insurance
[18:46:04] <Tom_itx> maybe the parts need to be certified
[18:46:09] <ronox> nope
[18:46:10] <roycroft> that too
[18:46:34] <ronox> i mean some do yyes but, a lot of the time its like all that was needed to make the thing was a quick doodle on a piece of paper
[18:47:15] <ronox> i guess it matters about finding the parts to supply the demand
[18:47:19] <roycroft> and someone who both knows what tolerance is required and has the skill to make the part to the required tolerance
[18:47:24] <jthornton> ronox: is your boss happy with the idea of you making parts for the company you work for?
[18:47:36] <ronox> we would be probably
[18:47:40] <ronox> he*
[18:47:55] <ronox> i run the rental department so, i only deal with equipment we own
[18:48:27] <jthornton> you might want to pass the idea past him to see what he things...
[18:48:30] <gloops> a lot of the part making thing is location
[18:48:30] <ronox> anyway its just an example
[18:48:34] <roycroft> does your boss know that you don't know the first thing about machining at this point? and if not, would he still be ok with it knowing that?
[18:49:04] <roycroft> and please understand, i'm not putting you down
[18:49:07] <roycroft> just trying to be real
[18:49:17] <ronox> no i get it
[18:49:19] <roycroft> everyone starts out knowing nothing
[18:49:34] <ronox> yes, he does know, and no, i wouldnt make things for my own company
[18:50:14] <roycroft> if you really want to make money quickly with your milling machine, i would suggest making coffee cups for the us air force
[18:50:17] <jthornton> I know guys that make things for their company on the weekends for extra money
[18:50:25] <gloops> as for inventing - if you do come up with a worldbeater, the chinese will come up with it too
[18:50:27] <jthornton> lol
[18:50:34] <roycroft> the air force pays thousands of dollars for a coffee cup
[18:50:39] <ronox> lol
[18:50:44] <ronox> i believe you
[18:50:54] <ronox> they are shitting cash
[18:51:05] <roycroft> with a plastic handle that breaks off the first time you bump it against anything
[18:51:06] <ronox> they get such cool stuff
[18:51:12] <ronox> oh lol
[18:51:24] <roycroft> it's so bad that pilots are playing with 3d printers trying to make replacement handles themselves
[18:51:39] <roycroft> because the standard protocol is to toss the cup when the handle breaks and buy a new one
[18:51:44] <roycroft> anyway
[18:51:48] <roycroft> i digress
[18:51:57] <ronox> anyway, im not looking for big bucks, its jus that should the worst happen, i lose my job, or whatever, its just nice to know what i can make with my hands so to speak, like to pay for rent and such
[18:52:07] <gloops> but..there are lots and lots of people wanting things made, all kinds, for their car restoration projection, for their workshop, anything - does anybody know someone who could make me one of these?
[18:52:11] <ronox> where to shift my priorities in my goal to become finaincially self sufficient
[18:52:20] <gloops> project
[18:52:21] <roycroft> honestly
[18:52:25] <roycroft> go back to uni
[18:52:28] <roycroft> or a trade school
[18:52:36] <ronox> i cant afforrd to go to uni
[18:52:36] <roycroft> or junior college, if you have such an equivalent in australia
[18:52:41] <roycroft> and take a couple machining classes
[18:52:59] <ronox> gotta have a job to pay the rent
[18:53:06] <jthornton> a neighbor came by once and asked if I could make a new mower deck spindle housing from steel and I said yes, it will cost you $750 and he about fainted
[18:53:09] <roycroft> i really really am a strong advocate for learning the basics of manual machining before doing cnc machining
[18:53:20] <roycroft> i remember that, jthornton
[18:53:22] <jthornton> but but but it only cost $40 for an aluminum one
[18:53:27] <roycroft> or, at least, your telling that story before
[18:53:29] <gloops> look at archivist who was in here, had a few machines in the garage, locally known as a competent machinist, always someone knocking on the door for a little job done
[18:53:40] <jthornton> yea and they make a bunch of them lol
[18:53:58] <roycroft> it cost the manufacture a *LOT* more than $750 to make the first one
[18:54:11] <jthornton> you got that right
[18:54:25] <jthornton> one off's are expensive to make
[18:54:42] <roycroft> i'm sure you told your neighbor to buy 10 spares from the manufacturer
[18:54:47] <ronox> i have no allusions about being able to just buy a tormach and suddenly i can quit my job
[18:54:51] <roycroft> and he would have $350 left in his pocket
[18:54:55] <gloops> and batch is out too - big cnc shops do those
[18:55:14] <roycroft> keep something else in mind, ronox
[18:55:20] <jthornton> yea, he went and purchased a new one and picked up the rocks in his yard I assume lol
[18:55:30] <roycroft> while a cnc machine is hands-free once it's set up and running, it does need to be tended
[18:55:38] <ronox> its just if i buy one, ited be nice to know my fallback revenue stream in a worst case scenario
[18:55:41] <roycroft> so you can't walk completely away from it and let it do its thing
[18:55:46] <ronox> yeah i know
[18:55:53] <ronox> my reprap i2 is the same
[18:55:59] <roycroft> there is still a labor cost even after you push the start button
[18:56:02] <ronox> cant trust the thing to be alone
[18:56:22] <ronox> yeah most jobs cant be done with a single bit
[18:56:44] <jthornton> once I've run a part on the VMC I don't mind walking away for the rest of the parts
[18:57:15] <SpeedEvil> In principle you can have extra sensors for that, but...
[18:57:20] <ronox> one thing id like to do is make injection molds, im fed up with 3D printed stuff, it breaks so easily, sometimes i just need a small flat rectangular block of plastic with a hole in it
[18:57:23] * jthornton wanders off to relax for the evening
[18:57:28] <roycroft> i would say buy a small turnkey system, learn on it, figure out its limitations, and if you need something more, figure out something you can make with the current one to sell in order to generate revenue for buying a bigger machine
[18:57:55] <ronox> and it wont even do that right XD
[18:58:15] <gloops> you want a cnc mill for injection moulds
[18:58:22] <ronox> yeah i know
[18:58:24] <roycroft> i would not start a machining career trying to make injection molds
[18:58:34] <ronox> nah personal use stuff
[18:58:40] <gloops> you also need knowledge of injection molds
[18:58:46] <gloops> and CAD software
[18:58:54] <tiwake> injection molds are butts to make
[18:58:56] <ronox> although injection molding does interest me a great deal
[18:58:58] <roycroft> and a bigger shed :)
[18:59:00] <ronox> how so?
[18:59:17] <roycroft> injection molds are precise and hard
[18:59:48] <ronox> well i guess it depends on what you are molding
[18:59:51] <jthornton> for a few parts you can get by with less
[19:00:03] <roycroft> they are fairly high up on the "required skill" chart
[19:00:09] <ronox> i dont doubt
[19:00:27] <roycroft> do not fool yourself into thinking that a cnc milling machine requires less skill than a manual machine to operate
[19:00:29] <gloops> someone was complaining avout $500 quote for a simple mold in ally, about 5 inch square
[19:00:35] <ronox> i saw a video on making one with a PCNC 440, tool the guy like 20 different tools to make a little plastic gun
[19:00:38] <gloops> thats actually very cheap
[19:00:45] <ronox> like a model machine gun for legos or something
[19:00:47] <jthornton> I do a lot of work for a local plastic plant and the molds they use are insanely complicated lol
[19:01:05] <roycroft> which is another reason i say you should learn the basics on a manual engine lathe and vertical mill before you start working on a cnc mill
[19:01:26] <ronox> immediately i need injection molding just for rigid bulky simple plastic shapes
[19:01:43] <jthornton> well the chickens are all in the roost area time to lock the outer doors
[19:01:44] <gloops> plastic molding is a science in itself
[19:01:45] <roycroft> you also have mentioned multiple times that you don't care about speed
[19:01:53] <ronox> things like a chasis or base plate for something else to be built upon
[19:02:00] <roycroft> but now you're talking about generating revenue with the mill
[19:02:11] <roycroft> and i put it to you that speed is just about all you should care about in that situation
[19:02:15] <ronox> if i can, but not planned
[19:03:01] <roycroft> if you're going to make money you need to ask yourself these things (amongst others):
[19:03:03] <gregcnc> so have these parts been quoted with molders?
[19:03:06] <roycroft> how long will it take me to design the part?
[19:03:10] <roycroft> how fast can i make the part?
[19:03:22] <roycroft> how much will the materials cost per part?
[19:03:28] <roycroft> how much will tooling cost per part?
[19:03:50] <ronox> money off the molded parts themselves? no
[19:04:06] <roycroft> i'm talking about making the molds
[19:04:11] <roycroft> that's what you said you want to do
[19:04:29] <roycroft> you also need to know how much it costs to operate your shop per hour
[19:04:34] <CaptHindsight> ronox: have an example of the parts you want to make out of plastic?
[19:05:15] <ronox> well, at one time i wanted to make gears but, i found that its easier to just buy existing ones and deal with the fitting process
[19:06:14] <ronox> one thing i cant do on my printer is make precise enough structures for gearboxes, like, just just a few layers of gears stepping up or down (not a transmission)
[19:06:34] <ronox> though molding that would be silly since it could also be done with a drill press
[19:06:43] <ronox> plus i wouldnt need that many
[19:06:43] <gregcnc> and these plastic parts can't jsut be machined ingoring molding altogether?
[19:06:56] <ronox> you can mill plastic?
[19:07:03] <gregcnc> ugh
[19:07:04] <gregcnc> yes
[19:07:26] <ronox> i was told a time ago its not possible and to look at injection molding for heavy duty soolid plastics :O
[19:07:34] <ronox> well shit
[19:07:53] <gregcnc> what is your design experience?
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[19:08:10] <ronox> still, now and then ill just see my printer suck at making certain things and ill think, if that was solid plastic it would be so much better
[19:08:17] <ronox> hmm
[19:08:26] <CaptHindsight> nylon, delrin , etc all machinable plastics suitable for gears
[19:08:34] <ronox> mostly held back by lacking the tools to manufacture what i wanted
[19:08:47] <roycroft> yes, i was just going to say
[19:08:52] <tiwake> nylon is badass
[19:08:56] <gregcnc> but you didn't know plastic can be milled?
[19:08:57] <roycroft> you can machine those parts directly on a mill
[19:09:00] <tiwake> PTFE
[19:09:03] <roycroft> you don't need to injection mold them
[19:09:07] <roycroft> unless you need thousands of them
[19:09:31] <roycroft> and that little tormach will do a great job machining plastic
[19:09:47] <ronox> true. maybe molding is harder than im thinking even for inherently basic objects, its just something ive always wanted to try though
[19:09:54] <CaptHindsight> CNC Router Machining Nylon Gear https://www.youtube.com
[19:09:59] <ronox> but molding cant be done without a mill to make the molds
[19:10:00] <roycroft> i promise, injection molding is harder than you think it is
[19:10:04] <tiwake> can confirm, I've machined nylon, delrin and others... they all machine quite nicely
[19:10:13] <tiwake> need reaaly sharp tools though
[19:10:15] <gregcnc> molding is high volume, in general
[19:10:21] <roycroft> you can make the molds by hand
[19:10:26] <roycroft> it will take an eon or two
[19:10:33] <roycroft> but you can do it if you're really determined
[19:10:35] <ronox> yeah, half the things i need dont need precision
[19:10:46] <CaptHindsight> Cutting Delrin Gear https://www.youtube.com
[19:10:55] <ronox> just some well placed screw holes and a filed edge or 2
[19:11:10] <ronox> and could otherwise be replicated using a clay mold or something silly
[19:11:24] <roycroft> people made accurate, intricate watches before they had engine lathes and milling machines
[19:12:10] <ronox> yeah i know, always mystified me that
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[19:12:48] <andypugh> Softer than average soft-jaws: https://photos.app.goo.gl
[19:13:27] <ronox> actually, one thing i want to mold is, for an idea i had, of a little novelty game controller, i discovered my university had a free use license on this microscopic cheap bluetooth controllers proprietary programming IDE
[19:13:28] <CaptHindsight> tangental topic, cnc this https://www.youtube.com
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[19:13:54] <ronox> i found out i could make a controller with a joystick and 4 buttons so small most people could barely hold it
[19:14:10] <roycroft> one of your countrymen does amazing things horilogical in the tiniest shop you can imagine: https://www.youtube.com
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[19:14:19] <ronox> a case for this would be almost impossible to print though because some parts would be so thin
[19:15:13] <roycroft> i, btw, would buy an engine lathe before a milling machine
[19:16:20] <ronox> ive used an engine lathe before
[19:16:26] <roycroft> and i did - i first purchased a small engine lathe
[19:16:30] <roycroft> then a small vertical mill/drill
[19:16:34] <roycroft> then a small horizontal mill
[19:16:42] <roycroft> then a medium engine lathe
[19:16:51] <ronox> lathes are like way more stable right
[19:17:05] <roycroft> and if i can make the space, a medium vertical mill (bridgeport class) will be my next machine
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[19:18:01] <ronox> i dont have the room for the kind of lathe id get
[19:18:04] <andypugh> I settled on a Universal mill. The swining table makes gear hobbing easier.
[19:18:06] <roycroft> at any rate, you should watch those clickspring videos for inspiration
[19:18:23] <roycroft> but don't blame me when you've missed supper and it's 3am and you're still watching clickspring :)
[19:18:46] <andypugh> I support Clickspring on Patreon. He’s making a decent living out of it.
[19:19:03] <roycroft> still in his tiny shed underneath the stairs?
[19:19:26] <andypugh> I don’t know.
[19:19:38] <andypugh> He seems to have about as much space as me.
[19:20:09] <ronox> welp, ive certainly learned a lot now
[19:20:26] <roycroft> actually, if you have a lot of space, that only means you don't have enough machines!
[19:20:33] <andypugh> Been playing with my new toy: https://www.aldi.co.uk
[19:20:58] <andypugh> It’s surprisingly good quality.
[19:21:27] <roycroft> i want to get a port-a-band
[19:21:37] <roycroft> i have a 7x12 bandsaw in the welding shop
[19:21:44] <Tom_itx> andypugh why the plastic softjaws?
[19:21:53] <roycroft> but i'd like something that's more handy for simple cutoffs in the main shop, and that i can cart around with me
[19:22:14] <roycroft> i'm pretty heavily invested in milwaukee 18v battery tools, including some of the new 9.0 batteries
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[19:22:37] <roycroft> and the milwaukee 18v port-a-band fuel model is more powerful than their corded model, so that's likely what i'll end up getting
[19:23:03] <gloops> think it was Aldi who used to sell the 'pro' line of power tools, they were very cheap - but surprisingly long lived, i had a drill for years and years
[19:23:12] <andypugh> That Aldi bandsaw is a handheld / portable. But it comes with a vice base too.
[19:23:35] <gloops> i only bought it for one job
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[19:23:38] <roycroft> the base is nice
[19:23:56] <roycroft> several folks have built bases for a port-a-band
[19:24:10] <andypugh> I spent today working on an alternative base for it. I want to be able to mount it on my lathe, for cutting off round bar.
[19:24:11] <roycroft> but it's nice to get one that already has one
[19:24:28] <roycroft> oh, that could be very handy
[19:24:43] <andypugh> Parting-off gets pretty difficult abouve about 3”
[19:24:52] <roycroft> faster and safer than using a parting tool
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[19:25:27] <CaptHindsight> how far are parts supposed to fly away from the lathe while parting?
[19:25:33] <andypugh> Here’s the first cut with the bandsaw: https://photos.app.goo.gl
[19:26:00] <andypugh> Could be squarer, but it wouldn’t have been if I had been cutting it by hand
[19:26:09] <Tom_L> not terrible for a bandsaw
[19:26:41] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: Normally I try to catch the parts on a rod or a stick.
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[19:27:44] <CaptHindsight> I keep everything at least 3-4 inches off the floor except for cords
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[19:28:14] <gloops> parting swarf usually curls
[19:28:19] <gloops> for me anyway
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[19:35:04] <andypugh> Tom_L: The soft-jaws are to hold that delicate and soft pewter ring while I face it off. I 3d printed because making them out of metal would have needed a big piece, and there is a lot of work making the serrations and slots.
[19:35:32] <andypugh> Whereas printing was just something that happened overnight.
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[19:38:40] <Tom_L> you probably printed those fairly dense for that
[19:39:08] <andypugh> Not really, it’s very soft metal.
[19:39:37] <andypugh> So 15% fill. I made some wrong at 30% fill, but decided I wanted speed more than strength on the second set.
[19:39:54] <andypugh> But I use the cubic infill, which seems pretty strong.
[19:40:11] <Tom_L> did they center up fairly good?
[19:40:37] <Tom_L> if you're just doing the end it probably doesn't matter so much
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[20:30:15] <andypugh> I faced off the flat, and as you say, I am just facing, so a bit of run-out is no issue.
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[22:47:42] <Kevin`> soft jaws indeed
[22:54:23] <{HD}> What do you use as your feeds/speeds calculator?
[22:55:03] <pink_vampire> ear
[23:08:15] <Tom_L> https://zero-divide.net
[23:08:18] <Tom_L> is a good one
[23:08:49] <Tom_L> https://daycounter.com
[23:09:58] <Tom_L> personally i use my cad cam software
[23:10:18] <Tom_L> with somewhat of an idea of chipload i need
[23:38:22] <miss0r> goodmorning
[23:40:15] <pink_vampire> hi miss0r
[23:41:31] <miss0r> 04:40 in the morning here. I'm standing here with a mug of the blackest black you've ever seen, cursing myself over making some rather optimistic deadlines...
[23:41:56] <miss0r> hello pink_vampire
[23:42:34] <{HD}> Tom_L: cool I will give those a shot
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[23:50:02] <{HD}> I don’t know if my machine can handle moving that fast...
[23:59:04] <roycroft> your machine wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it?