#linuxcnc | Logs for 2019-01-02
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[02:35:35] <Loetmichel> mornin'!
[02:36:40] <XXCoder> morning
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[03:12:37] <Deejay> moin
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[04:07:13] <gloops> right, just a couple of bandsaw blade guides to design and make
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[05:48:10] <jthornton> morning
[05:49:02] <XXCoder> hey jt
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[06:08:32] <Tom_L> morning
[06:09:33] <XXCoder> yo
[06:11:01] <Tom_L> 22°F Hi 37
[06:11:28] <XXCoder> 31f
[06:11:36] <XXCoder> been freezing last 2 days but today is last day
[06:11:43] <XXCoder> rest of it all low 40s f and rain
[06:11:59] <XXCoder> its been clear/cloudy 3 days. wow land got dry!
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[07:25:09] <veek> could you use a 5-8 ton jack to make stampings? Transformer and such? from rolled steel.. would the pressure be enough to punch the metal
[07:27:51] <Loetmichel> depends on the size
[07:28:02] <Loetmichel> also on the material thickness
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[07:28:26] <Loetmichel> but trasnformer cores are made of soft iron. not steel
[07:28:36] <Loetmichel> steel doesent work that well there
[07:28:55] <veek> CRGO?
[07:29:16] <syyl> there are basic formulas to calculate the forces for stamping
[07:29:47] <syyl> you need the circumference of the shape you want to cut out
[07:29:52] <syyl> and material / thickness
[07:30:21] <veek> well small stampings.. the size of a 250V 24v transformer at 5A
[07:30:25] <Loetmichel> veek: usually iron with up to 3% Si
[07:31:17] <syyl> ah sorry, not circumference, its actually the surfacearea of your part
[07:31:19] <Loetmichel> yes, CRGO
[07:32:28] <syyl> force(N) = partarea(mm^2) * 0,8 * Rmax(N/mm^2)
[07:32:38] <veek> i'm trying to figure out if the 5-8 ton jack will do or if i need a 50 ton jack..
[07:33:22] <syyl> http://www.wisetool.com
[07:33:26] <syyl> theres your formulas :D
[07:33:32] <Loetmichel> syyl: ahem: no material thickness in that formula?
[07:33:35] <Loetmichel> HOW?
[07:33:57] <veek> what Rmax
[07:34:09] <syyl> tensile strength of your material
[07:34:27] <syyl> material thickness comes into play when calculating the shear-work
[07:35:58] <Loetmichel> really? interesting
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[07:36:10] <syyl> i didnt invent those formulas ;)
[07:36:29] <Loetmichel> gut feeling was that you need a LOT more force to punch something out of 10mil steel then out of 0.5mm steel
[07:37:03] <syyl> thats what i would expect too ;)
[07:37:06] <gloops> hmm i looked into this years ago for coin making
[07:37:13] <gloops> cant remember a bloody thing though
[07:37:32] <gloops> thing is, striking a coin is a whole different ball game to pressing a coin
[07:37:41] <veek> https://www.machinemfg.com
[07:38:07] <gloops> hammer = shock loading, press does not, a lot more relative force needed
[07:40:40] <Loetmichel> our local sheet metal guy has a Trumpf CNC punch... with a hadraulic pressure gauge... you can barely see the needle move on 1mm galvanized... same punch tool in 6mm and the needle does a 270° every punch... and you feel that in the whole workshop in your feet
[07:41:00] <Loetmichel> -a+y
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[07:42:41] <veek> what books would cover this topic?
[07:42:57] <veek> tool and die making?
[07:43:39] <syyl> yes, any book on tool/die design
[07:43:52] <syyl> probably machinists handbook has some basics
[07:46:21] <gloops> 'the art of medieval coin striking' by Olaf Brasssunn
[07:46:30] <veek> ah thanks :)
[07:47:29] <veek> darn you broke google - that brings up nothing
[07:47:46] <Loetmichel> veek: btw, as a rough guideline: said CNC punch can do a maximum of 6mm mild steel with the largest tool about 30*5mm... and that thing can press 20 tons
[07:47:47] <gloops> very rare book
[07:48:39] <syyl> my gut feeling tells me that you will make only transformers for ants with 5tons ;)
[07:49:31] <veek> Loetmichel, hmm i don't get it.. who only 20T? don't car jacks lift 50T? there's one selling for like $100-200???Torin Big Red Hydraulic Bottle Jack, 50 Ton Capacity
[07:50:05] <veek> s/who/why
[07:50:14] <syyl> a 20t press that can do 1 stroke a second or faster is a complete different beast to a jack that does 50ton very slowly
[07:50:16] <Loetmichel> syyl: wouldnt say that. i would say with 5 ton he can maybe do about 100*100mm cores out of 0,5mm "elektroblech"
[07:50:26] <veek> syll ah okay
[07:50:30] <Loetmichel> if he has a tool with very small "schnittspalt"
[07:50:54] <Loetmichel> veek: a cnc punch usually doesent do a whole part
[07:51:10] <syyl> 100x100, no way with a flat faced punch and single digit tonnage ;)
[07:51:16] <Loetmichel> it has small "cutters" and round punches and "nibbles" the countour out
[07:51:50] <Loetmichel> and does that MANY times a second
[07:51:58] <gloops> for diy i mean what you want is a die holder, put the blank under punch, then whack it with a sledgehammer
[07:52:03] <gloops> 50 ton shock
[07:52:35] <Loetmichel> it does our 1.5mm aluminium sheet PC front doors... 100s of 3mm holes. literally in less than a minute:
[07:52:50] <gloops> to recreate that you need some very quick pneumatic ram or something, far more involved
[07:52:54] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org
[07:52:59] <Loetmichel> these
[07:53:03] <veek> gloops, how would i make the die.. i'm a total noob at this
[07:53:21] <gloops> assuming you havent got a cnc mill - die grinder
[07:53:36] <veek> ah die grinder I can afford!
[07:53:42] <gloops> but even then..thats some work for a coin with lettering etc
[07:53:45] <syyl> probably machine it out of toolsteel, harden and grind it
[07:53:50] <gloops> incredibly fine work
[07:54:24] <syyl> and then you need to make the die plate with the negativ cutout of your die too
[07:54:31] <gloops> right
[07:54:39] <syyl> with a fairly precise gap between die / die plate
[07:54:45] <syyl> depends on your material thickness
[07:54:45] <veek> isn't there a gentle introduction to all this.. like a book..
[07:54:51] <Loetmichel> sync: and a "growing" hole in the bottom ;)
[07:55:02] <syyl> any book on tool&die design
[07:55:34] <gloops> there were tutorials online when i looked, 10 years or more ago, we struck some coins in the Jorvik centre at York, got interested
[07:55:48] <Loetmichel> veek: have you considered milling those cores?
[07:56:03] <veek> Loetmichel, i don't have a milling machine
[07:56:06] <Loetmichel> could be cheaper and more flexible than a punch die
[07:56:12] <syyl> have them lasercut
[07:56:35] <veek> actually i don't even own an angle grinder.. (just to be clear)
[07:56:40] <Loetmichel> syyl: IIRC lasercutting electro steel means you have to heat treat it afterwards
[07:56:48] <rmu> this seems more plausible https://www.pass-ag.com
[07:56:58] <syyl> not sure, Loetmichel could be
[07:57:03] <gloops> https://www.youtube.com one way
[07:57:13] <syyl> our laserguy cuts transformer iron for us
[07:58:17] <gloops> you only need the power to raise the hammer, inertia does the rest, but a sledgehammer is gear to move a lot faster - more shock
[07:59:18] <Loetmichel> gloops: i wouldnt like to have my fingers under THAT contraption at any given time
[07:59:33] <gloops> lol, i wouldnt be in the same room Loetmichel
[08:00:24] <gloops> view of a viking punch there https://www.youtube.com
[08:00:34] <gloops> you just need someone to hold it while you hit it
[08:02:18] <Loetmichel> gloops: i would have more trust in a person NOT hitting my hands than i would have in that carabiner holding the fall hammer up in the last video .-)
[08:03:20] <gloops> well the basic setup is ok, make a rigid punch holder, to hold it steady while you apply force - in some way
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[08:05:20] <gloops> back to my own tedious project
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[08:29:20] <The_Ball> Got my first "real" operations on my machine https://studio.youtube.com
[08:34:09] <gregcnc> cool https://youtu.be
[08:46:26] <The_Ball> I have a sticky air solenoid valve, so I have to pulse the ATC arm multiple times before it retracts
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[09:00:59] <gloops> veek https://www.youtube.com
[09:01:15] <gloops> oh hes gone
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[11:19:42] <MacGalempsy> good morning
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[14:34:03] <fragalot> anyone here care to weigh in on servo watts VS stepper motor torque? (No idea how the 2 compare)
[14:34:20] <fragalot> looking for a servo with an equivalent torque of >3Nm
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[14:37:21] <fragalot> Eh I'll just go for closed loop stepper.. RPM is quite low.
[14:39:03] <gloops> 950w
[14:39:32] <TurBoss> and $ per W
[14:39:34] <TurBoss> lol
[14:39:54] <fragalot> gloops: how'd you get to that number?
[14:39:59] <gloops> https://www.ebay.co.uk
[14:41:02] <gloops> no im wrong lol
[14:41:27] <gloops> https://www.ebay.co.uk
[14:41:44] <gloops> or someone is wrong 950w = 6nm according to that
[14:42:12] <gloops> but 750w = 2.39nm
[14:42:31] <fragalot> yea i'm just going to get one of those chintsy chinese £90 closed loop stepper kits on fleabay
[14:42:40] <fragalot> since I have no idea if this is going to work out or not
[14:44:22] <gloops> whats it for? a lot of people seem to prefer closed steppers to servos anyway
[14:44:23] <BitEvil> Naively, 1/6 nm@ 1 rev a second is 1W. So, 6NM@1rev a second is 36W, and 950W would be 1500RPM
[14:44:45] <BitEvil> You can compute it simply as force*distance = energy
[14:44:45] <gloops> yes thats how i got it BitEvil..
[14:45:04] <BitEvil> ah
[14:45:18] <fragalot> gloops: I'm going to ATTEMPT to replace the change gears on my lathe with a DIY electronic equivalent
[14:45:36] <gloops> i see
[14:45:36] <fragalot> and I don't really like the overcomplication that the commercial units have
[14:46:19] <gloops> you do need to achieve quite accurate angle control for thread cutting
[14:47:33] <fragalot> which is why i'm not bothering with an arduino
[14:47:38] <gloops> or when i have looked into this, for a wood lathe, its obvious that much better accuracy is require for metal turning, than a stepper and a timing belt
[14:47:50] <fragalot> but going for an STM32F303K8 which should give me _VERY_ accurate timing
[14:47:52] <BitEvil> Sodium is a metal too!
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[14:50:12] <gloops> im interested in these low melting point allows XXCoder speaks of
[14:50:43] <gloops> allows = alloys
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[15:37:38] <gloops> prolonged drinking and eating crap is not commensurate with cad drawing
[15:47:43] <gloops> but what would you make on it https://www.ebay.co.uk
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[15:59:44] <XXCoder> watch gears maybe heh
[16:00:26] <gloops> actually doesnt look like it would cut much - pen bodies maybe
[16:02:25] <XXCoder> watch gears is much smaller
[16:02:38] <XXCoder> expecially if its for wristwatch
[16:03:28] <XXCoder> in fact I think I saw similiar setup in arcivist picture
[16:04:15] <gloops> ive no real application for watch gears heh
[16:07:08] <XXCoder> 5 euro lol guess nobody wants those nowdays
[16:07:21] <XXCoder> maybe arcivist but hes not been in here for quite a while
[16:09:47] <gloops> no tailstock, looks like its been knocked up by someone, still, could be used for something
[16:10:29] <gloops> motor got to be worth £10
[16:11:34] <XXCoder> think its commerical product, or in least was
[16:11:50] <XXCoder> wood board and motor added of course
[16:11:55] <XXCoder> I guess so guy can move it around
[16:12:14] <XXCoder> price of less precision but I guess it doesnt affect that much
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[16:15:51] <gloops> i might indulge if it stays for nothing, some slides for something maybe
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[16:16:15] <fragalot> gloops: i wonder what someone would cut on a WATCHmakers lathe. :P
[16:16:42] <gloops> thats not a watchmakers lathe, too coarse
[16:16:57] <fragalot> that depends on the size of watches you make
[16:17:20] <syyl_> a real 6 or 8mm watchmakers lathe will take a suprisingly heavy cut
[16:17:25] <gloops> difficult to estimate the size, but that chuck and tool
[16:17:28] <XXCoder> gloop that lathe looks like archivist picture of one, and hes one
[16:17:54] <syyl_> but that thing in the ebay link looks hacked together
[16:18:01] <XXCoder> too bad he dont come in anymore
[16:18:03] <gloops> some of the parts look ill fitting and tool room made to me
[16:18:19] <gloops> yes archivist helped me with my project
[16:18:52] <gloops> spindle threaded behind the chuck with some kind of bent shim
[16:19:18] <syyl_> headstock obviously built from barstock
[16:20:30] <gloops> if thats how he makes lathes i dont have much faith in his timepieces lol
[16:20:37] <syyl_> lol :D
[16:21:04] <XXCoder> lol
[16:21:24] <XXCoder> well google shows most dont have jaws like that
[16:21:34] <XXCoder> but similiar has found
[16:21:50] <syyl_> on a watchmakers lathe you use the chuck basicaly never
[16:21:57] <XXCoder> https://www.watchrepairtalk.com
[16:22:05] <syyl_> either collets or faceplate
[16:22:24] <syyl_> yeah, that a real one
[16:22:27] <gloops> probably made for some specific little job
[16:22:33] <syyl_> with a WW-style bed
[16:22:48] <XXCoder> other one is si,iliar just modified to have jaws. probably modified for non-watch jobs yeah
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[16:24:33] <gloops> yes some of those watch lathes were very nicely made, very expensive for the size too
[16:24:56] <syyl_> i recently rebuilt one
[16:25:11] <syyl_> newprice (still made) around 10k eur
[16:25:22] <syyl_> and i was suprised how shity is was made in some places
[16:25:31] <gloops> hmm
[16:27:15] <fragalot> syyl_: say that to clickspring :P
[16:27:16] <gloops> i think the chuck on that cheap one is probably on a MT
[16:27:26] <fragalot> (the never using the chuck part)
[16:27:48] <gloops> so maybe mount a collet chuck on the threads
[16:28:10] <XXCoder> gloops: if that thing is modified watchmaker lathe, you could unmodify
[16:28:50] <gloops> i could modify it to be the z axis on a wood lathe
[16:29:26] <gloops> alu plates £60 - that £10 maybe
[16:30:28] <gloops> take headstock off, fit spindle clamp to where toolpost is
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[16:36:11] <gloops> hopefully the old maker wont haunt me for dismantling his lathe
[16:37:10] <XXCoder> lol
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[16:40:35] <gloops> i want to make something along those lines https://ibb.co
[16:40:57] <XXCoder> interesting
[16:41:13] <Deejay> gn8
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[16:59:23] <gloops> was just curious XXCoder - which low melting point metals did you have in mind for casting?
[16:59:38] <XXCoder> oh nothing specific but theres nice list a second
[17:00:50] <gloops> just glancing at some, tin is quite low, 230C
[17:01:06] <XXCoder> cant find
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[17:02:03] <gloops> pewter around the same
[17:02:41] <gloops> could melt that on electric cooker ring at a guess
[17:02:54] <XXCoder> ranges I was looking was 100c to 150c
[17:03:05] <XXCoder> there was fanastic list. oh well. gonna go to work later
[17:05:01] <gloops> have a nice day
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[17:21:43] <Nick001-Shop> Using m102,m103 to operate a collet. Putting in 2 manual switches,how do I keep them from activating anything while machine is in auto mode?
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[18:47:46] <The_Ball> Is there somewhere where I can see what's coming up in LinuxCNC 2.8?
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[19:20:37] <jthornton> what do you mean?
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[19:24:45] <Tom_itx> look at the changelog
[19:25:06] <jthornton> that won't have what's coming up just past history
[19:25:49] <Tom_itx> hard to say what somebody may decide to work on
[19:26:01] <jthornton> aye
[19:26:44] <Tom_itx> you can tell them you want something and may get a 'do it yourself' reply :)
[19:27:04] <jthornton> that's how it's done if you want something you do it
[19:36:33] <MarcelineVQ> Or have a persuasive argument
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[19:43:14] <jthornton> who are you going to argue with?
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[19:49:55] <MarcelineVQ> Well the do it yourself responder, though the ideal order would be to present the persuasive argument before getting the do it yourself response
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[20:20:11] <flyback> dammit
[20:20:54] <flyback> first superdave osborne dies and now the captain in Captain & Tennille :/
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[20:30:07] <renesis> wtf superdave
[20:38:41] <flyback> yeah you knwo who that is right?>
[20:38:46] * flyback blames HighInBC
[20:38:57] <flyback> renesis, also mean jean from wwf died
[20:38:59] <flyback> gene
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[20:39:38] * flyback blames HighInBC for all 3 celeb deaths today
[20:40:09] <HighInBC> rule of 3s... keep on my good side
[20:40:17] <renesis> wtf mean gene, i cant believe i know who you are talking about
[20:40:38] <renesis> wtf is captain and tennile
[20:40:47] <flyback> keep us together
[20:40:49] <flyback> I WILL
[20:40:50] <flyback> I WILL
[20:40:52] <flyback> I WILL
[20:40:57] <flyback> that song ring a bell?
[20:41:09] <flyback> they used in some recent movie
[20:41:43] <flyback> OH I KNOW WHAT IT WAS
[20:41:48] <flyback> THE FINAL EPISODE OF HAVEN ON SYFY
[20:42:35] <flyback> oh he had parkinsons ouch
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[20:49:12] <MarcelineVQ> superdave? sad news
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[21:05:30] <gloops> cant say ive heard of him
[21:05:36] <gloops> i heard of superted
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[21:07:12] <norias> hmmm...
[21:07:31] <norias> i'm seeing some people using brushless dc motors for spindles
[21:07:50] <norias> is this somehow better or worse than an induction motor?
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[21:14:05] <gloops> i dont know, but ac motors work
[21:15:00] <norias> oh, for sure
[21:15:11] <gloops> veek https://www.youtube.com
[21:15:12] <norias> i'm mostly looking at AC because that's what's on production machines
[21:15:31] <norias> afaik two speed (star / delta) induction motors
[21:15:49] <norias> (constant horsepower)
[21:15:52] <gloops> someone in diycnc was adapting rc dc motors for using as a spindle norias
[21:16:11] <norias> yes, but i'm not sure why.
[21:16:39] <gloops> cheaper mainly, also higher speeds, for pcb cutting etc
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[21:17:23] <gloops> 50000 rpm +
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[21:18:39] <norias> i'm surprised it would be cheaper
[21:18:48] <norias> given the magnets required
[21:19:06] <norias> maybe they don't need much torque
[21:19:29] <gloops> im not buying a 3 phase spindle for my next router, im just going to use a .5 hp motor with stepped pulleys to a shaft, i only use 2 or 3 speeds anyway
[21:19:53] <norias> hmmm. right on.
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[21:35:10] <flyback> YOU KNWO YOU Can make your own 3 phase converter
[21:35:21] <flyback> also some vfd's do it automatically
[21:36:03] <norias> what do you mean?
[21:42:08] <flyback> if you don't have 3 phase power
[21:42:23] <flyback> you can make a phase converter using 2 motors or get a vfd that does single 3 conversion
[22:02:58] <veek> norias, using SCR/triac and such (solid state device)
[22:03:18] <veek> hey gloops, ty :p
[22:06:20] <norias> yeah, i'll look in to that
[22:06:28] <norias> right now, i'm working backwards
[22:06:58] <norias> from some common milling scenarios to generate a horsepower / torque requirement spec for the motor
[22:07:06] <norias> then see what kind of motors fit that
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[22:12:05] <veek> norias, how are you doing that? working out that power requirements for milling)
[22:13:02] <norias> uh, rather standard formula
[22:13:08] <norias> it's in machinery's handbook
[22:13:20] <norias> i stuck in an excel sheet at some point
[22:13:29] <veek> oh hmm.. i don;t have enough knowledge to understand the handbook
[22:13:58] <norias> basically take MRR divided by a "K" factor
[22:14:03] <norias> which is material dependent
[22:14:15] <norias> in reality it's material / tool combination dependent
[22:14:35] <norias> note HP requirements will increase as the edge on the tool wears
[22:14:50] <norias> but, you can take the K factor from the book
[22:14:58] <norias> get the HP requiremnet at the tool
[22:15:18] <norias> then divide by the efficiency of the drive train for the spindle
[22:15:24] <norias> (another look up in a table thing)
[22:15:44] <norias> geared systems are less efficient than belts, generally
[22:15:50] <norias> so belts are like 90%
[22:16:03] <norias> that gives you the HP at the motor
[22:16:19] <norias> i use it as a sanity check
[22:16:31] <veek> hmm won't gears be more efficient.. i thought belts slip?
[22:16:35] <norias> i.e. can the machine even generate that much power, in theory, for what i want to do
[22:16:40] <norias> no, actually
[22:16:55] <norias> belts do slip, but when they don't, they are more efficient
[22:17:26] <norias> if the belt system is designed right, they won't slip until you get pretty close to the HP max of the motor
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[22:17:33] <norias> in my experience
[22:18:01] <norias> so, i usually do that and back off to 60% of whatever feed i came up with as using max HP
[22:18:12] <norias> then creep up to 80% if everything holds
[22:18:47] <norias> keep in mind, there are a ton of things that can go wrong before you even get to using 80% of HP on production machines
[22:19:21] <norias> I've done it using ER-32 collets with a torque wrench and ball bearing nuts
[22:19:39] <norias> which generate a lot more holding force than regular collet nuts
[22:19:55] <norias> plus, i usually have to have six bolt / clamps on a regular 6" vise
[22:21:21] <norias> sorry, that was long
[22:21:24] <norias> i like machining
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[22:22:03] <veek> yeah lot of google involved.. i know what a collet is .. but ER32
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[22:23:13] <norias> ER collets are double angle collets
[22:23:21] <norias> they have different size ranges
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[22:23:32] <norias> ER 32 goes from.. i think 1/6" to 3/4"
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