#linuxcnc | Logs for 2019-01-06

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[00:56:46] <elmo40> how do you guys find the stability of LinuxCNC?
[00:58:36] <CaptHindsight> place it on the floor, give it a shove
[00:59:31] <elmo40> it won't fall over! staying put.
[00:59:42] <CaptHindsight> elmo40: it's been used for several years on thousands of machines
[01:00:01] <CaptHindsight> look at the buglist if you're interested in problems
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[01:03:14] <elmo40> i began using it when #emc was a room. Just wondering how others are experiencing it.
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[02:22:27] <sparq> Hey! Is there a PPA for Ubuntu 18.10 (cosmic)? Can't tell if not, or if my Google-fu is weak today.
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[03:37:19] <Deejay> moin
[03:37:29] <XXCoder> hey
[03:37:40] <XXCoder> BAH why is buying batteries for devices a nightmare
[03:37:45] <XXCoder> so many fakies
[03:39:24] <Deejay> hehe
[03:52:27] <fragalot> Hmph. either I need to rework my algorithm, or do this electronic leadscrew thing some other way... Or i'm just too critical :P
[03:52:49] <XXCoder> whats issue so far?
[03:53:03] <fragalot> I've got a 0.0016% error when doing an M5
[03:53:08] <XXCoder> besides trying to find real batteries since I cant do that crap lol
[03:53:45] <XXCoder> m5 is stop spindle?
[03:53:49] <fragalot> M5 thread
[03:54:02] <XXCoder> oh
[03:54:05] <fragalot> actually I could reduce the error if I choose a different rpm
[03:54:58] <XXCoder> is your machine skipping steps?
[03:55:26] <fragalot> no, it's the math that doesn't work out to generate the exact frequency needed
[03:55:47] <XXCoder> ahh ok
[03:55:47] <fragalot> I could make it toggle between 2 nearby frequencies to compensate for it so the error doesn't build up though
[03:56:56] <gloops> i doubt anyone would notice that
[03:57:14] <fragalot> gloops: probably not. and my leadscrew is probably worse than that anyway, BUT STILL :D
[03:57:25] <fragalot> I'mma do the toggle method to keep the error from growing
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[03:58:51] <fragalot> what's the tolerance on metric screw pitch anyway
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[04:02:12] <gloops> oh quite a bit
[04:04:40] <renesis> wtf 0.0016%
[04:04:57] <renesis> they prob stretch more than that when you tighten them
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[04:05:24] <XXCoder> what does 0.0016% mean when travel is 1m long
[04:05:29] <XXCoder> .001mm?
[04:05:39] <XXCoder> (error from travel)
[04:05:56] <fragalot> over a 20mm thread it would mean en error of 0.16mm
[04:06:17] <gloops> we used to talk about working to +- 4 thou for threads, going back some years lol
[04:06:30] <renesis> 0.000016m, so .016mm
[04:07:53] <gloops> if they arent precision drive threads - hardly relevant
[04:08:03] <renesis> fragalot: i got way less than that for 20mm
[04:08:07] <fragalot> sorry, 0.032mm over the full thread
[04:08:18] <fragalot> renesis: yeah I had my clock freq changed in my spreadsheet
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[04:08:46] <renesis> that literally a fraction of a hair
[04:09:12] <renesis> is fine, it means the screws or nuts wont fall off
[04:09:28] <fragalot> sure, and it's acceptable if I make the threading function semi-automatic where it starts from a fixed index
[04:09:34] <XXCoder> 0.00126 inches quite small
[04:09:39] <fragalot> rather than hoping the frequency is spot-on and it always aligns like gears would
[04:10:07] <fragalot> so I have 2 options, either I add some self-correction features to it to keep it aligned at all times
[04:10:19] <fragalot> or I make it so the threading starts from a known index point
[04:10:19] <renesis> you need a dds generator
[04:10:50] <fragalot> i've got a 2 channel 200Mhz arbitrary waveform generator
[04:10:59] <fragalot> but that still doesn't align it with the spindle encoder
[04:12:22] <gloops> how is the motor geared to the spindle?
[04:12:49] <fragalot> i'm not sure why that matters, gloops ?
[04:13:30] <gloops> just trying to get my head round it, if you reduce the gearing...
[04:13:49] <fragalot> the spindle is belt driven
[04:13:53] <fragalot> the encoder is on the spindle itself
[04:13:56] <renesis> whats res like on the generator?
[04:14:22] <gloops> oh i see, this isnt like an A axis
[04:14:23] <fragalot> renesis: goes down to 1mHz
[04:14:39] <fragalot> gloops: basically I want to replace my change gears
[04:14:44] <renesis> in 1 mHz steps?
[04:14:48] <fragalot> renesis: eys
[04:15:08] <renesis> ha neat, prob is a dds gen
[04:15:57] <fragalot> except it has a 14bit analog output
[04:16:15] <fragalot> just looked up the spec sheet
[04:16:20] <renesis> dds is usually for sine wave output
[04:16:29] <renesis> 14b is massive, especially if filtered
[04:16:32] <fragalot> 16Kpts wavelength, 1µHz resolution, 16bit analog resolution
[04:17:03] <renesis> whats sample rate?
[04:17:04] <fragalot> and some magic to remove clock jitter
[04:17:27] <fragalot> 150MSa/s
[04:17:38] <renesis> nice
[04:18:31] <renesis> weird i wonder what that means, magic to remove clock jitter
[04:18:42] <renesis> like, for the sample rate or for output?
[04:18:50] <fragalot> output
[04:19:00] <fragalot> so you can ask it to do 1.0001Mhz and it 'l do it
[04:19:20] <renesis> right but its by repeating/skipping samples
[04:19:20] <fragalot> rather than giving you 1.00009Mhz for one cycle, and 1.00011 the next
[04:19:53] <fragalot> (which is my plan for my electronic leadscrew project)
[04:19:55] <renesis> maybe it interpolates
[04:20:25] <fragalot> no idea how it does it
[04:20:43] <renesis> like, 16k sample, 150 sample rate, would be repeating samples
[04:21:06] <fragalot> page 4: https://mediacdn.eu
[04:21:13] <fragalot> also, it's a 60Mhz model, not 200
[04:21:21] * fragalot remembered wrong
[04:21:33] <renesis> oh, yeah its a dds
[04:21:35] <renesis> sexy
[04:21:43] <renesis> its fixed point magic
[04:21:55] <fragalot> I'm wondering if it does it by abusing the rise & fall times of the signal combined with some analog wizardry
[04:21:59] <renesis> basically phase is calculated with like, 32 bits, or 48 bits
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[04:22:41] <fragalot> sure, but even with fixed point magic, surely you're still bound to the CPU's clock rate
[04:22:42] <renesis> and then the most significant 16bits or whatever (depends on waveform sample length) are used for the wave table address
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[04:23:04] <renesis> in practice, it will skip or repeat samples to make frequencies work
[04:24:11] <renesis> its not really dependent on sample rate and processing as much as phase accumulator word length and wavetable sizes
[04:25:24] <renesis> processing is like, a single addition and a 'divide' per sample output, quotes because the division is usually done by just ignoring the low bytes
[04:25:30] <fragalot> but none of that matters for a square wave?
[04:25:47] <fragalot> and the frequency jitter i'm talking about is exactly that
[04:25:57] <renesis> for square waves, its the same but you dont do a table lookup
[04:26:16] <renesis> you just compare to a value half of the phase accumulator max
[04:26:45] <fragalot> but you're still capped to the processors' clock rate, in terms of jitter
[04:27:00] <renesis> like, for ARB, in an FPGA, you would just connect the high bits of the phase accumulator register to the address input of the waveform memory
[04:27:04] <fragalot> I can't think of a way to guarantee a perfect arbitrary frequency if the clock dividers can't produce it
[04:27:13] <renesis> well, the sample rate i think
[04:27:31] <renesis> itll basically do the toggle thing you want automatically
[04:28:18] <fragalot> hm.
[04:28:27] <renesis> itll even do like, slow slow fast, itll do 99 slow samples and one fast samples if that makes it work
[04:28:49] <renesis> its kind of magic, its just fixed point tricks tho
[04:29:57] <renesis> but it mentions it does square waves different, so your thing maybe has a trick to change reference clock freq to try and get things even closer
[04:30:10] <renesis> https://www.analog.com
[04:30:41] <renesis> i really like this article, always end up refertencing it for little projects
[04:30:59] * fragalot bookmarks
[04:31:46] <fragalot> tbh, all this electronic leadscrew project is, is nothing more than a fancy arbitrary frequency divider/multiplier
[04:31:58] <fragalot> ignoring latency, of course
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[05:51:39] <jthornton> morning
[05:52:25] <XXCoder> yo
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[06:12:55] <Loetmichel> elmo40: just pressed it in. holds well and doesent need any weld.
[06:13:08] <XXCoder> yo
[06:13:22] <Loetmichel> "morning" XXCoder
[06:13:32] <XXCoder> 3 am, morning enough for me
[06:13:35] <Loetmichel> and jthornton
[06:13:50] <Deejay> hey ya all :)
[06:14:19] <Loetmichel> <- 12:14 PM here... and i STILL just have risen from bed.
[06:14:38] <Loetmichel> the "" around the morning wasnt for you, it was for me ;)
[06:14:48] <XXCoder> lol ok
[06:17:18] <Loetmichel> maaan i am getting old. just remembered a coworker form a company 15 years ago... now i am trying to remember the other names... so far i found 4 of ~20 coworkers back then. Is Name memory loss normal when you reach 50? I can remember their faces... but the names are gone :-(
[06:25:28] <jthornton> I can't remember when I was 50...
[06:25:53] <XXCoder> never could rememebr names when I was 20, let alone at 42.
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[07:29:24] <Tom_itx> log
[07:29:24] <c-log> Tom_itx: Today's Log http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81
[07:29:24] <russian_troll> Tom_itx: Today's Log http://www.isaeff.net
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[08:06:49] <gloops> so..who was laughing at this lathe? https://www.ebay.co.uk lol
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[09:18:27] <elmo40> Loetmichel, nice. i guess the little grooves hold well. who requests this kind of rf suppression? Is it as simple as making a metal box enclosure?
[09:20:11] <elmo40> gloops, that can not be accurate enough to be a watchmaker lathe.
[09:20:44] <gloops> well thats what i said, it was only going for £6 i was going to buy it, they can have it for 180
[09:21:17] <fragalot> elmo40: depends on the watch you're making, and on how skilled (read: masochistic) you are
[09:22:41] <fragalot> that said - it is a pretty sorry looking thing xD
[09:27:26] <gloops> i thought it had been concocted from a bigger lathe cross slide, that does look like a lathe bed in itself though
[09:28:04] <fragalot> https://i.imgur.com
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[09:40:10] <syy__> i am definetly the upper one, fragalot :D
[09:40:22] <fragalot> I'm a blend of the 2
[09:40:49] <syy__> you think youre fancy, and still get slapped in the face by simple things? :D
[09:41:10] <fragalot> try to jump down the stairs where there are none
[09:41:34] <fragalot> or trip on the bannister halfway down :P
[09:41:47] <syy__> lol :D
[09:45:12] <Loetmichel> elmo40: mostly military and "services"
[09:45:48] <Loetmichel> it isnt as simple. it usually needs additional filtes on all outgoing wires and internal ferrites to keep EMI in check
[09:47:29] <syy__> just ordered a six-jaw-chuck-kit
[09:47:29] <syy__> haha
[09:47:45] <syy__> https://www.banggood.com
[09:48:05] <syy__> already did the math how much hours i can put into it and still be cheaper than a similar röhm-sixjaw
[09:48:16] <syy__> (hint: a bunch)
[09:48:19] <fragalot> the jaws look interesting
[09:48:32] <syy__> yes - they are used for toolgrinding
[09:48:43] <syy__> to give clearance for the grindingwheel
[09:48:45] <fragalot> I see
[09:49:32] <elmo40> Loetmichel, the metal box, what would you say the amount of RF that reduces?
[09:50:57] <elmo40> syy__, that jaw is very much worth the cost!
[09:51:05] <elmo40> i couldn't produce one for so little
[09:51:31] <Loetmichel> elmo40: depends how "closed" it acutally is
[09:52:09] <Loetmichel> the large hole on the back for the battery compromizes it a bit. But i would guess about 15 to 20dB
[09:52:18] <elmo40> and what about the faraday cage? what is that good for?
[09:52:33] <Loetmichel> it is basically a faraday cage
[09:52:40] <elmo40> but it is not solid
[09:52:47] <Loetmichel> solid?
[09:52:57] <Loetmichel> it doesent have to be solid
[09:53:31] <Loetmichel> any "hole" in the cage will let RF thra up to 1/10 of the wavelenght
[10:00:15] <Loetmichel> or to put it another way: you cant have a (single largest dimension, a 1 thou "slot" is enough) hole larger than about 1/10 of the wavelenght you want to shield
[10:00:41] <Loetmichel> so if you want to shield up to 4ghz you better stay below 3mm holes
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[10:15:25] <Loetmichel> *meh* mother in law just called. "that newfangled phone you kids installed here is blinking red all the time. It drives me nuts!"... so i had to remember the key layout of a phnoe i saw last half a year ago and walk here thru from memory how to clear the "missed calls" list... the things you do for family... :-(
[10:16:23] <fragalot> should 've put an enclosure around it
[10:17:23] <Loetmichel> fragalot: next time i am around at her place i will snip off the message LED ;)
[10:17:30] <fragalot> :-)
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[10:26:02] <fragalot> syy__: so how are you planning to create the scroll for your new chuck kit? :P
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[10:43:04] <elmo40> Loetmichel, have you used the RF absorbing paint?
[10:43:05] <elmo40> https://www.yshield.com
[10:43:14] <Loetmichel> yes
[10:43:20] <Loetmichel> but not from that company
[10:43:53] <elmo40> i was going to paint my bedroom with it. maybe help us sleep a little better.
[10:43:55] <Loetmichel> and not for Sdip-27 level A
[10:44:01] <Loetmichel> only level N
[10:44:05] <Loetmichel> level B
[10:44:19] <Loetmichel> i dont think so
[10:44:58] <Loetmichel> unless you sleep right above a big transformer or radio transmitter RF wouldnt affect your body at all
[10:45:32] <Loetmichel> and even then its mostly just thermal or auditory
[10:45:40] <Loetmichel> not "electrical" problems
[10:45:47] <elmo40> is the main reason to do this for 'sensitive' places is that you can actually 'read' the rf coming off of something and sniff data?
[10:45:52] <Loetmichel> our body is shielded pretty well
[10:45:58] <Loetmichel> yes
[10:46:33] <elmo40> especially mine... a few spare tires to block RF ;-)
[10:47:18] <elmo40> i see. so it isn't about health reasons, it is about security. interesting. then banks shouldnt have bare machines!!
[10:47:36] <elmo40> all their monitors are standard! nothing is covered.
[10:48:23] <Loetmichel> indeed
[10:48:51] <Loetmichel> we can recover the display contents of a COTS 24" display from about 100m away...
[10:49:10] <elmo40> Loetmichel, looks like a lot of people make cases and covers!
[10:49:13] <Loetmichel> pretty funny if you see it the first time.
[10:49:14] <elmo40> plenty of competition out there?
[10:49:30] <elmo40> http://www.ospl.nl
[10:49:33] <Loetmichel> nope. about 5 companys in germany that are allowed the same in germany
[10:49:43] <Loetmichel> ospl is a competitior
[10:49:49] <elmo40> these guys have a lot less screws than you...
[10:50:11] <Loetmichel> they use more EMI gaskets i assume
[10:50:25] <Loetmichel> as i said: emi gaskets are expensive.
[10:50:26] <Loetmichel> :-)
[10:50:27] <elmo40> you haven't bought one to find out how they do it?
[10:50:35] <Loetmichel> nope
[10:50:41] <Loetmichel> no need to
[10:51:02] <elmo40> but how do you know your competition? how can you compare your product vs their product? and upsell the customer on your design?
[10:51:05] <Loetmichel> we get their stuff every now and then to "remeasure"... so we already KNOW how they do it ;9
[10:51:46] <elmo40> i see.
[10:51:59] <Loetmichel> reminding you that we are one of the very few germany companys that are allowed to certify such devices
[10:52:15] <Loetmichel> or recertify if they were opened
[10:52:46] <Loetmichel> so we get stuff from pretty much all our competitors occasionally to re-certify
[10:53:48] <Loetmichel> btw: for "biological" RF shielding i would recommend to not use LED or low voltage Halogen lighting in your living quarters.
[10:54:09] <Loetmichel> expecially not with long low voltage wires and SMPS "transformers"
[10:54:24] <Loetmichel> thats about 90% of the RF noise an any modern home
[10:54:27] <fragalot> LED lights are fun though
[10:54:37] <Loetmichel> and a bit of powerline land
[10:54:41] <Loetmichel> -d
[10:54:49] <fragalot> every now & again switching the LED lights off in my house arms the wireless alarm system
[10:55:03] <Loetmichel> fragalot: led lights are ok if they are high voltage and have the SMPS inside the socket
[10:55:24] <fragalot> Loetmichel: they still blast out tons of noise on the power lines
[10:55:25] <Loetmichel> the long lines on low voltage lighting that act as antennas are the problem
[10:55:45] <Loetmichel> fragalot: not NEARLY as much as the low voltage stuff
[10:56:09] <fragalot> still enough to ruin my FM radio reception & as I said, sometimes set off my alarm system
[10:56:16] <Loetmichel> yes
[10:56:47] <Loetmichel> try that with a few 10 feet of normal "speaker wire" between the SMPS and the LED/halogen
[10:57:06] <Loetmichel> and try to recive ANYTHING medium wave or short wave ;)
[10:57:15] <fragalot> :p
[10:57:31] <Loetmichel> its a few decades more power emitted and very wide band ;)
[10:57:59] <fragalot> nothing beats ye olde ring transformers for halogen
[10:58:05] <Loetmichel> indeed
[10:58:34] <fragalot> I know of lots of transfromer based halogen light systems that are older tham I am
[10:58:36] <Loetmichel> worst thing i had was an "imax b6" clone battery charger
[10:58:49] <fragalot> and I've yet to see a modern CFL or LED light last that long
[10:58:52] <Loetmichel> charging a battery drill on the other end of the company.
[10:59:02] <fragalot> haha
[10:59:26] <Loetmichel> coworker opened the door of the measurement chamber with the SA still running: instant overload from 50khz to 4ghz ;)
[10:59:47] <Loetmichel> THATS a wide band jammer if i have ever seen one ;)
[11:00:14] <fragalot> haha
[11:01:55] <Loetmichel> mind you: the charger was about 20 meters away from the chamber
[11:02:14] <Loetmichel> and the antenna is INSIDE the chamber
[11:02:42] <Loetmichel> and it STILL overloaded the analyzer when the door opened
[11:02:58] <fragalot> circling back to your COTS display thing
[11:03:11] <fragalot> can you really get the image just from the RF noise 100m away?
[11:04:33] * fragalot puts on his tinfoil hat
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[11:10:06] <elmo40> Loetmichel, have you tested different rf absorbing paints? do they help in your applications?
[11:10:19] <Loetmichel> they do
[11:10:27] <Loetmichel> but not for highest level stuff
[11:10:42] <Loetmichel> not enough absorption
[11:10:52] <Loetmichel> fragalot: we can
[11:11:01] <Loetmichel> its a bit scary, isnt it?
[11:11:52] <fragalot> I just feel sorry for who'mever is looking in
[11:11:53] <fragalot> :P
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[11:45:39] * SpeedEvil misread RF absorbing pants
[11:46:09] <CaptHindsight> hot pants
[11:47:00] * SpeedEvil thinks of 'He's the sort of person that would stand on top of a mountain in a thunderstorm wearing copper armour, raise his sword to the heavens and scream all gods are bastards.'
[11:50:08] <CaptHindsight> elmo40: drilling and bending sheet metal is cheaper and easier than using coatings
[11:50:49] <SpeedEvil> And more reliable.
[11:50:59] <fragalot> and repeatable
[11:51:07] <CaptHindsight> they don't have a way to sinter the coatings
[11:51:12] <SpeedEvil> Coatings are hard to assure they have achieved the thickness and properties you hope
[11:51:12] <fragalot> and durable
[11:51:13] <fragalot> :P
[11:51:37] <fragalot> SpeedEvil: not hard, but harder than just knowing it's good
[11:52:31] <CaptHindsight> how hard depends on how skilled you are
[11:52:57] <SpeedEvil> And how much equipment you have, and how much control over the process you have.
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[11:53:23] <SpeedEvil> 'does the can of spray vary in properties when it gets near the end'
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[11:53:45] <CaptHindsight> can of spray, we aren't talking about the same thing
[11:53:51] <fragalot> if you are using a spray can you've already lost
[11:54:43] <CaptHindsight> it's interesting following the thought process
[11:55:54] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: That was part of the point.
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[11:56:25] <SpeedEvil> Fully qualified process that is reliable takes more than skill, but equipment too.
[11:56:29] <CaptHindsight> they tried some coatings, they failed, now universal truth: coatings don't work
[11:56:39] <Loetmichel> SpeedEvil: if its all body copper armor that guy could very well live thru it... not mentionining some mayor burns not
[11:56:43] <Loetmichel> -not
[11:56:52] <fragalot> Loetmichel: and permanent hearing damage
[11:57:05] <Loetmichel> indeed
[11:57:20] <SpeedEvil> Loetmichel: Then you are deaf and have a pissed off God.
[11:57:32] <SpeedEvil> Wide angle disintegration beam incoming.
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[11:58:45] <Loetmichel> you know that sketch with the nun and the priest?
[11:59:36] <Loetmichel> priest is working wood and hammering on his thumb. "SHIT!". Nun: "dont cuss, god doesent like it!"
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[12:00:20] <Loetmichel> the priest hits his thumb again "DANG! SHIT!" Nun: "DONT CUSS, GOD WILL PUNISH YOU!"
[12:00:49] <Loetmichel> a while later he hits his thumb a thirt time "SWEET JESUS; SHITSHITSHIT!"...
[12:01:26] <Loetmichel> *A cracking thunder, a lightning from the sky, the Nun is just a speck of ash on the ground.
[12:01:42] <Loetmichel> Voice from above "SHIT; MISSED!"
[12:01:44] <Loetmichel> :-)
[12:01:46] <fragalot> germans really shouldn't be allowed near jokes... ;-)
[12:02:16] <Loetmichel> fragalot: it loses in translation, doesent it?
[12:02:40] <fragalot> that, and IRC loses all timing to it
[12:02:49] <Loetmichel> indeed
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[13:15:23] <elmo40> Loetmichel, i read about the capability to 'see' a screen from behind it. i'd like to reproduce that! how is it done?
[13:15:38] <elmo40> not all screens run the same frequency so you'd have to adjust that.
[13:23:23] <elmo40> is it aluminum you use for the housings? or steel?
[13:37:33] <HighInBC> remote reading of screens with radio go back to crt days
[13:37:58] <HighInBC> if you use an SDR near a screen you and put a checkerboard pattern on the screen you see patterns in the emf
[13:38:10] <HighInBC> the details beyond that are beyond me
[13:38:27] <HighInBC> there was a defcon talk done by a woman about that, I don't remember the name
[13:39:17] <HighInBC> I imagine a fair bit of tuning would need to be done for any given screen to decode. But you could record easily enough and decode later in the lab
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[15:35:32] <treats> What are you goto sources for cnc bits? I primarily only cut wood, if that matters.
[15:35:57] <treats> I usually use https://www.ebay.com or toolstoday or amazon.
[15:36:36] <Jymmm> treats: what coutnry you in?
[15:36:43] <gloops> seems a bit expensive treats
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[15:38:19] <gloops> https://www.ebay.co.uk
[15:38:40] <gloops> obviously that supplier is no good to you, but have a look round on ebay for the best deals
[15:38:57] <treats> US
[15:39:03] <treats> East Coast, if that matters.
[15:39:28] <treats> So, if you're looking for a new bit, you'll start at ebay, typically?
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[15:40:10] <Jymmm> treats: For wood, I LOVE CMT (brand) router bits
[15:40:33] <gloops> i do yeah, i am only a diy user atm though, ive found those cheapo bits to be just as good as the expensive ones - the endmills and so on
[15:40:56] <gloops> lets face it nobody is going to sharpen a 3mm endmill when they are £1 each
[15:42:29] <fragalot> Jymmm: I don't even have any bits that aren't from CMT or Trend any more :P
[15:43:22] <Jymmm> fragalot: and Fraus SUCK ASS big time
[15:43:31] <fragalot> never heard of fraus
[15:43:37] <gloops> for profiled cutters fancy stuff maybe, i bought a trend dovetail bit a while ago because they had an extra long one
[15:43:49] <Jymmm> FRUAD (something liek that, they are red)
[15:43:55] <fragalot> freud
[15:43:56] <gloops> Freud?
[15:44:05] <fragalot> i've never seen those 'round these parts
[15:44:14] <gloops> theyre ok lol
[15:44:26] <fragalot> CMT is popular, and a shitty brand called kreator
[15:44:37] <gloops> i dunno i only use them at diy speeds, how they work on industrial routers idk
[15:44:39] <Jymmm> Yeah, Freud, piece of shits
[15:44:55] <fragalot> kreator is the most popular one in shops, but i'm fairly sure the carbide teeth are in fact just little nubs of cast iron
[15:45:02] <gloops> those chinese endmills cut wood like diamonds
[15:45:38] <fragalot> chinese carbide is OK if you have low expectations, and no need to keep tolerance between toolchanges
[15:47:02] <gloops> https://www.ebay.co.uk
[15:47:26] <gloops> right Trend £20 for ONE, no noticeably better performance
[15:47:47] <gloops> or £1 each from china, throw away prices
[15:47:58] <fragalot> the difference is more noticable on acrylic & metals
[15:48:30] <gloops> possibly, when the Trend is still sharp - but a dull Trend wont be as crisp as a new chinese one
[15:48:35] <fragalot> surface finish, tolerances between toolchanges (again, production environments), and the corners
[15:48:39] <fragalot> sur
[15:48:40] <fragalot> e
[15:49:03] <fragalot> I think a quarter of my endmills are chinese carbide
[15:49:14] <gloops> plus breakages costs
[15:49:30] <fragalot> and I grab those for roughing through scale & casting grit
[15:49:55] <gloops> i need boxes of ten anyway, i sweep quite a few up lol
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[15:58:14] <fragalot> I like ToT's tap handle
[15:58:32] <fragalot> might make one, because i'm sick of those crappy chinese ones
[16:01:40] <gloops> https://www.ebay.co.uk
[16:01:45] <gloops> wonder what they are
[16:04:55] <syyl> old&rusty?
[16:05:20] <fragalot> they are going to be for someone else :P
[16:08:13] <gloops> not original pieces anyway
[16:09:08] <gloops> they all want the old stuff - these dont slip https://www.ebay.co.uk
[16:20:40] <fragalot> slipping isn't the issue I have. it's more that all of the tap wrenches i've got work loose so you have to re-tighten them every 2 turns
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[16:22:14] <fragalot> gloops: https://www.ebay.co.uk
[16:23:01] <fragalot> you know the bed is in perfect shape when it includes a wire wheel as one of the accessoires
[16:23:06] <syyl> what is it with machines that look like they sat on the bottom of the sea?
[16:23:21] <syyl> its hard to differenciate the machine from the ground it sits on
[16:23:24] <fragalot> syyl: that's called a patina
[16:23:25] <syyl> so rusty and dirty it is
[16:23:26] <fragalot> xD
[16:23:36] <syyl> i would use much stronger words.
[16:23:51] <fragalot> I used to work in a blacksmith's shop nearly 10 years ago
[16:23:59] <fragalot> everything there looked like that, and it's easy to explain why
[16:24:00] <gloops> trusty old myford, still cheap
[16:24:18] <syyl> trusty old wreck at the moment
[16:24:27] <fragalot> crappy farmers' concrete floor that abrades away, poor to no shielding from the wind inside
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[16:24:41] <fragalot> and so much clutter that it's a pain in the arse to pick up a broom, so nobody does
[16:25:13] <fragalot> and if you do sweep the floor, a dust mask is not optional for the next 2 hours
[16:25:35] <syyl> :D
[16:25:50] <gloops> thats only where theres been condensation - surface rust, my frying pans get like that
[16:26:12] <fragalot> should 've kept them seasoned, gloops :P
[16:26:58] <gloops> shouldnt use wire scourers on them really
[16:27:03] <fragalot> speaking of things collecting dust though
[16:27:09] <fragalot> syyl: are you ever going to finish that steam engine :P
[16:27:30] <syyl> maybe :D
[16:27:35] <syyl> i moved it today
[16:27:37] <fragalot> gloops: funny story, my mother in law came over a few years ago
[16:28:12] <fragalot> first thing she did was offer to do the dishes, immediately taking out a very coarse steel scourer pad she had with her & go to town on our new tefal teflon coated pans
[16:28:46] <syyl> she came over with a steel scrub pad?
[16:28:54] <syyl> her everyday carry?
[16:28:58] <fragalot> syyl: yea - they were on a camping trip 'round europe
[16:29:27] <fragalot> she uses it for their (sigh) stainless camping cookware
[16:29:50] <syyl> ;D
[16:30:11] <Jymmm> teflon? camping???
[16:30:24] <fragalot> Jymmm: that was in my home kitchen
[16:30:26] <gloops> thats the trouble with teflon pans, and glossy worktops
[16:30:28] <fragalot> when they stopped by
[16:30:37] <fragalot> gloops: not really, we just wipe them out
[16:30:54] <fragalot> I have a zero-tolerance policy for scourers of any sort in the kitchen
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[16:31:20] * Jymmm loves his cast iron pans =)
[16:31:42] <fragalot> Jymmm: same. simple wipe'n'go most days
[16:33:13] <fragalot> I wish ebay had a filter to remove sellers that sell both tooling, AND clothing
[16:33:35] <gloops> heres what the myford could look like https://www.ebay.co.uk
[16:34:11] <syyl> i bought my best tooling from chinese sellers that had water faucets, insert tooling and wedding dress
[16:34:17] <fragalot> it could indeed look & perform like new, if you put about 25k worth of hours in it
[16:34:50] <SpeedEvil> For that price, it needs to come with an operator.
[16:34:58] <syyl> haha
[16:35:01] <syyl> 12k pound
[16:35:05] <syyl> thats what in eur
[16:35:14] <fragalot> syyl: before or after march?
[16:35:16] <syyl> 14k eur
[16:35:33] <syyl> that will buy you a pretty stinkn good weiler toolroom lathe
[16:35:41] <syyl> in perfect condition
[16:35:57] <fragalot> but weiler doesn't have a famous youtuber that casts things in his garage
[16:36:01] <gloops> buying a piece of british history there though, you could charge people to have a go on that
[16:36:07] <SpeedEvil> Is 12K original price with interest?
[16:36:08] <fragalot> lmao
[16:36:10] <SpeedEvil> Perhaps?
[16:36:29] <syyl> he will never sell that lathe for that price
[16:36:39] <fragalot> can't blame him for trying
[16:36:57] <fragalot> I mean, it's nottingham. there are some rich nutters 'round those parts
[16:37:51] <fragalot> he sells all of the loose components in his bargain basement
[16:38:02] <fragalot> I wonder if you add all of them up together to build a new lathe what you'd end up at price wise
[16:38:04] <renesis> what you got against stainless cooking stuff?
[16:38:27] <fragalot> renesis: using a non-stainless coarse (think lathe birdsnest) scourer on it
[16:38:45] <fragalot> completely undermining the stainlessness (is that a word?)
[16:38:51] <SpeedEvil> https://www.ebay.co.uk Well - when you go by this price, it's quite reasonable.
[16:39:05] <fragalot> LOL
[16:39:11] <fragalot> 60 sold!
[16:39:22] <renesis> fragalot: even with metal scorers everything just rinses out?
[16:39:30] <gloops> think thats a an error
[16:39:40] <fragalot> renesis: you've contaminated the stainless already
[16:39:41] <syyl> sellers do that when they are on vacation
[16:39:48] <SpeedEvil> Or nearly out of stock
[16:39:49] <renesis> wtf contaminated
[16:39:53] <syyl> but want to keep the auction online
[16:39:56] <SpeedEvil> If you actually run out, then you lose the '60 sold'
[16:40:11] <fragalot> renesis: same reason you do not use the same wire brush on steel & stainless.
[16:40:25] <fragalot> or use both in the same sandblaster
[16:40:30] <renesis> when ive cleaned stainless with metal scouring pads, ive never had rust issues after
[16:40:34] <syyl> dont you like your stainless a bit rusty?
[16:40:40] <renesis> its never happened
[16:40:47] <fragalot> renesis: probably because your scouring pads are also stainless
[16:40:52] <renesis> nope
[16:41:04] <renesis> theyre half rusted and disintegrated by the time im done
[16:41:10] <fragalot> lovely
[16:41:22] <renesis> its not normal for me to even have that stuff around, but what youre talking about doesnt seem to be a thing
[16:41:39] <SpeedEvil> shop humidity has a big effect
[16:41:40] <fragalot> tell that to the food industry we build machines for
[16:41:48] <renesis> thats diff
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[16:42:09] <fragalot> I like to be consistent.
[16:42:23] <syyl> contamination of stainless by normal carbon thing is a thing
[16:42:30] <renesis> just because theirs commercial rules regarding it doesnt mean you hit stainless with metal and its going to rust to shit
[16:42:44] <syyl> *facepalm*
[16:42:52] <fragalot> renesis: it does though. we've had it happen DURING production of some of our stuff
[16:42:55] <renesis> yeah i like my stainless because i can burn shit slightly in it for flavor, and it cleans up fine
[16:43:02] <fragalot> after we'd sent it out for sandblasting by someone that also did not believe in it
[16:43:16] <renesis> well are you scouring them, to clean them or using machine tools to finish them?
[16:43:26] <renesis> -,
[16:43:37] <fragalot> neither - just a normal sponge, they just wipe out because of the polish in them
[16:43:48] <fragalot> if it's burnt on, just soak it for a bit & it wipes right out
[16:44:00] <renesis> negative
[16:44:29] <fragalot> sure. tell me that the thing i've been doing for the past 15 years doesn't work.
[16:45:08] <SpeedEvil> Different conditions, different shit happens.
[16:45:12] <renesis> ^
[16:45:23] <fragalot> SpeedEvil: Weird that :-)
[16:46:35] <gloops> slightly more modern https://www.ebay.co.uk
[16:46:36] <Deejay> gn8
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[16:47:45] <fragalot> clean shop floor around it.. that might be an alright buy for someone
[16:49:18] <syyl> at least it doesnt look like it was burried in a pile of crap for 10 years ;)
[16:49:45] <gloops> for nothing atm
[16:49:53] <syyl> looks descent - i like the very wide dovetail of the cross slide
[16:50:18] <syyl> even with a wiper in place (if the wiper works is the other thing)
[16:50:24] <gloops> http://www.lathes.co.uk
[16:50:30] <fragalot> I still need new wipers for the schaublin
[16:50:43] <fragalot> not fond of felt.. I want proper rigid rubber wipers
[16:50:43] <Rab> https://austin.craigslist.org
[16:50:51] <fragalot> but I can't for the life of me find them anywhere
[16:50:51] <Rab> How does that gantry support its own weight?
[16:51:10] <syyl> with a lot of hope and faith?
[16:51:21] <renesis> what do you mean how
[16:51:22] <syyl> "oh please almighty, dont let my gantry break apart"
[16:51:26] <fragalot> Rab: it's a calibrated flex
[16:51:31] <renesis> with mated structural components made of wood
[16:52:06] <gloops> not bend a board vertically
[16:52:15] <syyl> well, it worked obviously :D
[16:52:17] <renesis> thats what the DIY community accepts as functional
[16:52:18] <gloops> well, not for the force that is going to apply
[16:52:20] <syyl> the question is, how well
[16:52:24] <SpeedEvil> It could have been moderately rigid if it'd filled in the other sides of the box
[16:52:43] <fragalot> SpeedEvil: you have to leave something for the user to upgrade
[16:52:49] <fragalot> so they can feel good about themselves
[16:52:53] <SpeedEvil> And added some depth probably
[16:52:57] <gloops> they work fine, thats like an aeroplane wing, you dont need lots of material, its all about the shape
[16:53:06] <SpeedEvil> gloops: yeah. Which is wrong.
[16:53:22] <SpeedEvil> gloops: That's going to twist like a pretzel
[16:53:30] <fragalot> gloops: it's a box section structure without the box part
[16:53:38] <syyl> open cross sections will flex like crazy
[16:53:39] <renesis> Makers 3d printed on tools that would sway massively with X axis movements for a decade
[16:54:14] <renesis> if the shit moves unloaded, its a win, anything more is icing
[16:55:06] <SpeedEvil> On the plus side, it'll burn well.
[16:55:18] <fragalot> SpeedEvil: it's ply though
[16:55:19] <syyl> and give you cancer
[16:55:20] <renesis> you can compost it!
[16:55:22] <fragalot> so it won't even do that right :P
[16:55:25] <gloops> i cant see if those ribs have a connecting rod, it wont twist so easily - to move one you have to move them all
[16:55:50] <fragalot> gloops: this is why i'm happy you're not in the bridge building business
[16:55:50] <gloops> could be better though
[16:55:57] <renesis> im sure itll route fine at 10krpm and 3 IPM
[16:56:02] <SpeedEvil> gloops: to have much twisting resistance, you need lots of structure at the outside.
[16:56:31] <SpeedEvil> with either whole sheets, or X cross-bracing to stop those squares turning into parallelograms
[16:57:24] <gloops> lol, ive seen those before cant remember the name, only nema 17 motors and a palm router, its for engraving, v carving not ploughing plywood sheets up
[16:57:39] <SpeedEvil> A 6" box of 1/2" thick ply, with bracers at every 6" - whole - will be really rigid
[16:58:26] <gloops> yes
[16:58:29] <renesis> itll grow when humid
[16:59:04] <renesis> aluminum extrusion isnt that expensive
[16:59:16] <fragalot> but alu expands when it gets hot in summer
[16:59:36] <renesis> wood will dry out and warp and i doubt the expansion is going to be that much
[16:59:44] <fragalot> :P
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[17:00:19] <renesis> welded steel square tube is prob the best solution
[17:00:39] <gloops> https://www.youtube.com
[17:00:52] <renesis> wtf MDF
[17:01:06] <renesis> that shit is going to crumble
[17:01:59] <gloops> lol, learning machine maybe, they sometimes make an mdf machine to cut the ally parts for a better machine
[17:02:37] <fragalot> that's the way it's done, build cheap & have it upgrade itself :P
[17:03:00] <fragalot> that way you get to spend more time with it
[17:03:05] <fragalot> rather than making stuff
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[17:21:40] <sparq> Plywood is a really interesting material when it comes to precision. It has really, really good dimensional stability within the plane of the material, and better strength-to-weight than aluminum to shear forces.
[17:22:05] <sparq> When it gets humid, it gets thicker, but that's it.
[17:23:10] <sparq> So, if you design your machine carefully, you can get surprisingly precise and repeatable operation.
[17:23:11] <zeeshan> lol
[17:25:34] <sparq> That machine doesn't look like it's designed to convert the torque and vibration into shear, but I'd have to take it apart to know for sure.
[17:33:19] <sparq> I have a 3D printer with a plywood frame, and our machine shop had a much, much more expensive version in aluminum, and it sucks. When the AC kicks on and cools the room by 3 or 4 degrees, the expansion of the extrusion parts opens the gap between the nozzle and the bed enough to slip in a piece of printer paper.
[17:34:40] <sparq> It's quieter, though, and more robust to undergrads. So I guess it wasn't a bad purchase.
[17:35:40] <sparq> (Well, I guess the parts contract when the AC comes on, but the way it's put together opens a gap rather than closes it.)
[17:36:42] <SpeedEvil> sparq: design is hard!
[17:45:30] <sparq> It is! I guess I'm more impressed by how well the plywood machine performs that I'm dissapointed in the aluminum machine. We spent a long time peering at dial gages and boggling at how good it is.
[17:46:45] <sparq> It's almost nine years old now, and still accurate to within 10-15 microns in X-Y, and about 1-3 microns in Z.
[17:47:49] <sparq> Though, it isn't throwing around anything as heavy as a router spindle...
[17:51:31] <XXCoder> hey zeeshan
[17:51:45] <XXCoder> was wondering how you was doing
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[18:56:43] <zeeshan> hi XXCoder hows it going
[18:57:02] <XXCoder> little bit under the weather but ok. you?
[18:58:10] <zeeshan> just trying to get this design done for work =/
[18:58:15] <zeeshan> so much pressure to get it done
[18:58:56] <XXCoder> engineers
[18:59:12] <XXCoder> sometimes im jelious, sometimes im glad im not one
[19:00:00] <zeeshan> i guess most jobs have their up and downs
[19:00:04] <zeeshan> sometimes i wish i didnt have to think
[19:00:37] <XXCoder> yeah even aspects you like sometimes feel quite down
[19:00:44] <XXCoder> thankfully not common
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[19:42:50] <Wolf_ITX_> jthornton: around?
[19:43:02] <XXCoder> hey wolf
[19:43:14] <Wolf_ITX_> hey
[19:46:26] <elmo40> why are weekends so short? i thought technology was to help us not work so much!
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[19:56:32] <Wolf_ITX_> weekend? work days where most parts stores are closed IMO
[19:57:32] <Wolf_ITX_> see if I can figure out how to set up this 7i96...
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[20:01:21] <zeeshan> hey guys i want some opinions on this
[20:01:41] <zeeshan> i run into this issue all the time and i have to always do some sort of welding to get around it... im sure there is a more elegant way to do this
[20:02:18] <zeeshan> basically i have a flat plate 3/8" thick
[20:02:32] <zeeshan> i want to join another 3/8" thick plate perpendicular to the first one
[20:02:36] <zeeshan> i always have to end up welding them
[20:02:52] <zeeshan> im willing to profile the plates to fasten them together
[20:03:07] <zeeshan> there has to be a way to do it without welding or trying to tap holes on the side of the plate
[20:04:03] <XXCoder> cant buy T extrudes of same metal?
[20:04:19] <XXCoder> if its thick enough you can make it mill all sides
[20:04:20] <Wolf_ITX_> dovetail? tape?
[20:05:09] <zeeshan> no XXCoder
[20:05:11] <zeeshan> i want to use standard plate
[20:07:04] <Tom_L> what's wrong with welding it?
[20:07:17] <zeeshan> distortion, cost
[20:07:29] <zeeshan> it like 5x cheaper to profile and assemble
[20:07:38] <Tom_L> how big?
[20:07:40] <zeeshan> vs use a welder fitter
[20:07:44] <zeeshan> no particular size
[20:07:53] <Tom_L> what about T material?
[20:08:05] <zeeshan> i guess i wasnt clear
[20:08:08] <zeeshan> =/
[20:08:09] <zeeshan> hehe
[20:08:16] <Tom_L> 2 plates
[20:08:18] <zeeshan> i'm overly simplifying the joint
[20:08:19] <Tom_L> one perp to the other
[20:08:28] <zeeshan> this joint can happen in much more complicated ways
[20:08:41] <zeeshan> lemme try to take ap ic sec
[20:09:37] <Tom_L> you gotta join it somehow...
[20:11:36] <XXCoder> rub fuse it
[20:13:45] <zeeshan> lol
[20:15:22] <zeeshan> https://photos.google.com
[20:15:24] <zeeshan> for example that
[20:15:39] <zeeshan> theres 2 typical choices that i'd use to join the flat piece with the channel piece
[20:15:53] <zeeshan> weld.. or tap the channel through its thickness
[20:15:57] <zeeshan> which is really a waste of time!
[20:16:23] <zeeshan> ive seen another trick with profiling..
[20:16:57] <XXCoder> or make it from single block
[20:17:04] <XXCoder> very expensive
[20:17:05] <zeeshan> $
[20:17:18] <zeeshan> if i had to make say 20 of them
[20:17:24] <zeeshan> then that would definitely be something i'd consider
[20:17:49] <XXCoder> well could do post-weld mill clean
[20:17:54] <XXCoder> make parts extra thick
[20:18:02] <zeeshan> already do that..
[20:18:03] <zeeshan> $
[20:18:09] <XXCoder> weld anneal it, then mill to size
[20:19:02] <XXCoder> honestly best hoice so far for money is bore tap and bolt em on
[20:19:35] <Tom_L> pour them then machine the critical parts
[20:19:58] <Tom_L> anything you do won't be as cost effective as welding or bolting
[20:20:23] <XXCoder> tom casting yeah forgot that option
[20:21:12] <gregcnc> i'm surprised welding isn't cost effective enough, if the design can't be simplified in some way to avoid two parts
[20:21:14] <Tom_L> may be less than you think
[20:22:02] <Tom_L> make it from one piece then bolt or tack the top flange after you bend it up
[20:22:17] <Tom_L> you want more accuracy than that though
[20:22:25] <Tom_L> cause i see a slide
[20:22:40] <zeeshan> ill show you one trick i know that is cheaper than welding and machining through thickness
[20:22:48] <zeeshan> but its not as secure
[20:22:57] <XXCoder> zeeshan: ya know, why do just 2 bends? why not do 3?
[20:23:16] <zeeshan> xxcoder definitely
[20:23:17] <XXCoder> make it from one peice, bend it at bottom joint as well as 2 already pictured
[20:23:23] <zeeshan> this isn't the final piece
[20:23:34] <zeeshan> this is just an example to figure out better ways to joint plates together
[20:23:55] <zeeshan> frigging computer lagging!
[20:23:57] <Tom_L> that's what i was suggesting
[20:24:01] <Wolf_ITX_> have to fight spring back with 3 bends on that part
[20:24:02] <zeeshan> im working over remote desktop
[20:24:12] <XXCoder> Tom_L: oh understand yours now
[20:24:12] <Tom_L> true
[20:24:23] <gregcnc> other than wleding and fastening, what do you do? elmer's glue?
[20:24:38] <Tom_L> big magnets :D
[20:24:45] <zeeshan> you use fastening with profile
[20:24:47] <zeeshan> tricks
[20:24:47] <zeeshan> :D
[20:25:01] <gregcnc> sure, get creative
[20:25:06] <Tom_L> V grove the parts
[20:25:11] <Tom_L> slide them together
[20:25:40] <Tom_L> not as strong
[20:25:45] <XXCoder> okay im not too familiar with welding, but would making small grooves on T part for C part touch and weld make for even stronger joint
[20:26:21] <XXCoder> also make it cannot move while welding
[20:27:25] <zeeshan> https://photos.google.com
[20:27:29] <zeeshan> thats a trick ive seen used before
[20:27:47] <gregcnc> ikea kit
[20:27:53] <zeeshan> :D
[20:28:07] <renesis> three bends, spot weld
[20:28:08] <Tom_L> not very strong
[20:28:11] <Tom_L> can move
[20:28:12] <zeeshan> if that's utilized well
[20:28:17] <Tom_L> unless you pin it too
[20:28:23] <Wolf_ITX_> add tabs
[20:28:23] <zeeshan> it works pretty good
[20:28:32] <Tom_L> you said you didn't wanna drill
[20:28:47] <Tom_L> do you punch that shape in the side?
[20:29:07] <Tom_L> big nibbler would do that
[20:29:20] <zeeshan> most of our formed parts are profiled using waterjet/plasma/laser
[20:29:26] <XXCoder> oh hmm bolt nuts dont nuts cost more than tapping C part for bolts?
[20:29:30] <zeeshan> so it pretty much costs nothing to put in a notch like that
[20:29:50] <zeeshan> XXCoder: nope
[20:29:59] <Rab> You could tack the nut into the notch.
[20:30:03] <zeeshan> im sure theres some other tricks people have seen that allow you to do similar stuff
[20:30:13] <XXCoder> i guess it dont cost all that much since its only small order
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[20:30:19] <zeeshan> rab totally agreed that would cause no distortion
[20:30:21] <XXCoder> Rab: nice idea
[20:30:23] <renesis> rab: then why not tack weld a triple bent piece
[20:30:26] <zeeshan> distortion is the reason it gets so expensive
[20:30:27] <Tom_L> it's gonna pull at the slot
[20:30:36] <Tom_L> so it doesn't contact the whole surface
[20:31:01] <Tom_L> dunno what forces are on it
[20:31:04] <gregcnc> have you bent parts that close to a feature like that?
[20:31:07] <XXCoder> you'd have to bolt it on make sure its properly aligned before you tack nuts on
[20:31:16] <zeeshan> gregcnc: example don't get so picky :P
[20:31:31] <gregcnc> well shit,.. real world
[20:31:34] <zeeshan> haha
[20:31:37] <zeeshan> i know man
[20:31:40] <zeeshan> not my first gig :P
[20:32:00] <zeeshan> i run into this fastening problem a lot
[20:32:02] <gregcnc> what do customers say?
[20:32:02] <zeeshan> it bothers me
[20:32:50] <zeeshan> im liking wolf's idea about tabs also
[20:32:51] <renesis> why not just have a tab on the side of the T that mounts to the stage
[20:33:08] <renesis> single bend
[20:33:28] <gregcnc> tha't what I mean about simplify, but this is a real example appearently
[20:33:44] <gregcnc> nor do we have the whole picture
[20:34:17] <renesis> left image, turn the bottom joint to a bend, single tack weld at top joint
[20:34:57] <renesis> or eliminate the U mounted to the stage, and have a bent tab on the right of the T that mounts to the stage
[20:35:07] <gregcnc> sorry this "isn't" a real example
[20:35:32] <zeeshan> renesis: i'm trying to find ways to fasten these parts together
[20:35:34] <zeeshan> as is
[20:35:37] <zeeshan> not completely change their form
[20:35:41] <renesis> or do the 3 bend piece, but use some off the shelf small angle bracket to mount the top with two bolts
[20:36:04] <renesis> without any welding?
[20:36:19] <zeeshan> things like the notch, tapping through thickness, and tabs are ways that i can see working to join these things together
[20:36:25] <zeeshan> *notching
[20:36:39] <zeeshan> im wondering if there are more ways to join them
[20:36:54] <renesis> at the end of the U against the T, have two inward bent tabs flat on the T, bolts and nuts
[20:36:55] <zeeshan> more tools in the belt to do the job can't hurt!
[20:37:13] <zeeshan> yes that would work
[20:37:16] <Tom_L> �/ \ the end and match it on the other part then slide them together and pin or bolt
[20:37:25] <renesis> dovetails.
[20:37:33] <Tom_L> ^^
[20:37:55] <zeeshan> how would you use dovetails in this case?
[20:38:05] <renesis> that would actually be super pimp, not the end of the world to cut
[20:38:12] <Tom_L> dovetail the C and slot the T
[20:38:17] <renesis> cut them across the T
[20:38:24] <renesis> yeah
[20:38:27] <zeeshan> oo
[20:38:30] <zeeshan> that is a nice idea.
[20:38:34] <renesis> rly?
[20:38:38] <renesis> heh
[20:38:45] <Tom_L> then pin or bolt with a 'holding' bolt
[20:38:58] <renesis> nice
[20:39:06] <Tom_L> make sure you scrape them too for accuracy :D
[20:39:10] <zeeshan> hahaha
[20:39:24] <Rab> Man if you just used a cube of solid steel, you'd be done by now.
[20:39:33] <zeeshan> rofl rab
[20:39:37] <renesis> inward tabs is pretty universal, decemt mounting flats
[20:39:41] <Tom_L> too much machine time
[20:39:48] <renesis> yeah even drill time
[20:39:53] <zeeshan> rab i definitely like billet machining
[20:39:59] <renesis> oh
[20:40:06] <zeeshan> just trying to expand my brain
[20:40:08] <renesis> steel square tube
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[20:40:13] <zeeshan> vs doing the same old thing again and again
[20:40:15] <renesis> saw to size, done
[20:40:22] <renesis> rab with the inspiration
[20:41:05] <Tom_L> you could machine a cast piece but you said you wanna use what they've already got
[20:41:20] <Tom_L> alot less machine time
[20:41:27] <renesis> im totally confused on the requirements but im logging the hours
[20:42:25] <gregcnc> there are no requirements
[20:42:30] <zeeshan> heres an example of what i actually did in the past..
[20:42:49] <gregcnc> Zee is really asking about alternate methods of tee joints for 3/8" plate
[20:43:33] <renesis> thats 3/8"?
[20:43:40] <Tom_L> apparently
[20:43:56] <renesis> oh
[20:44:06] <renesis> can we tap things?
[20:44:14] <Tom_L> he didn't want to
[20:44:29] <gregcnc> only requirement is: cheaper than dirt
[20:44:46] <Tom_L> so machine round bar on the end of the C and poke holes in the T to match then spot weld them on the back side of the T
[20:45:02] <Tom_L> less distortion
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[20:45:20] <zeeshan> https://photos.google.com
[20:45:21] <renesis> https://www.mcmaster.com
[20:45:22] <zeeshan> last 2 images
[20:45:29] <zeeshan> they ended up being machined parts
[20:45:33] <renesis> cheaper than dirt is one part, 3 bends, tack weld
[20:45:45] <zeeshan> believe it or not, it was cheaper to machine those vs welding then machining
[20:46:01] <zeeshan> everything bolted together
[20:46:02] <gregcnc> how?
[20:46:13] <renesis> looks tapped?
[20:46:18] <zeeshan> yes it was tapped
[20:46:38] <renesis> okay then for this thing, bunch of #8 screws, maybe flat
[20:46:39] <gregcnc> damn, are teh welders driving Porsche?
[20:46:41] <Tom_L> you said that was out
[20:46:53] <zeeshan> Tom_L: i said it is something ive done in the past :P
[20:46:56] <renesis> make a weld bot
[20:47:05] <zeeshan> its really not the greatest way because you need to oversize plates
[20:47:08] <renesis> its a single weld and youre an automation company
[20:47:08] <zeeshan> to be able to tap em
[20:47:12] <Tom_L> zeeshan did you catch my last idea?
[20:47:18] <Tom_L> kinda far fetched
[20:47:21] <Tom_L> but an option
[20:47:38] <zeeshan> casting would take a while
[20:47:41] <Tom_L> no
[20:47:47] <Tom_L> machine rounds on the end of the C
[20:47:54] <Tom_L> and poke holes in the T
[20:47:59] <Tom_L> then spot them on the back
[20:48:10] <renesis> or smash them with a hammer
[20:48:12] <renesis> unf unf unf
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[20:49:18] <zeeshan> so the round ends are like registers?
[20:49:19] <zeeshan> or dowels
[20:49:21] <zeeshan> ?
[20:49:35] <Tom_L> dowels would slip
[20:49:44] <Tom_L> how you gonna attach them to the C
[20:49:56] <renesis> interference fit
[20:49:57] <Tom_L> and still get it flush
[20:50:05] <Tom_L> you could drill side holes and weld them to the C also
[20:50:11] <renesis> not sure it has to be flush :\
[20:50:20] <Tom_L> appears that it does
[20:50:32] <renesis> i mean if were welding, he can just weld whats in the CAD image
[20:50:35] <Wolf_ITX_> seeing that its a water jet part might as well tab the C and make matching rectangle holes in the T part
[20:50:54] <Tom_L> he wants less distortion
[20:51:02] <Tom_L> the spots would do that i believe
[20:51:15] <renesis> i think he just wants to machine it into a block of 6061
[20:51:19] <zeeshan> i dont think ive spot welded 3/8 plate before
[20:51:33] <zeeshan> but it could really just be plug welded?
[20:51:46] <Tom_L> well, leave the dowel shallow and fill the hole
[20:51:47] <Tom_L> yeah
[20:51:54] <zeeshan> Wolf_ITX_: and weld the tabs after?
[20:51:57] <renesis> is this holding like, a duck or an elephant?
[20:52:21] <Wolf_ITX_> probably weld yeah
[20:52:31] <renesis> would make welding faster
[20:52:43] <renesis> get the camry driving welders on it
[20:52:46] <Jymmm> JB Weld
[20:52:48] <zeeshan> yea and need less of it
[20:53:11] <gregcnc> why is welding so costly at your shop?
[20:53:26] <zeeshan> it's not
[20:53:26] <renesis> i think with welding it makes sense to do the whole thing one piece
[20:53:35] <zeeshan> but profiling and forming is definitely a lot cheaper
[20:53:40] <renesis> cut welding in half
[20:53:40] <zeeshan> by like i would estimate 8x the cost
[20:53:48] <zeeshan> cause you'd just bolt things together
[20:53:52] <zeeshan> and itrs good to go
[20:53:56] <renesis> you could do the tabs to locate/hold things before welding
[20:54:00] <zeeshan> theres no messing around with sending it for stress relief
[20:54:02] <zeeshan> then machining
[20:54:02] <zeeshan> etc
[20:54:21] <renesis> is bending drama?
[20:54:29] <zeeshan> no not at all
[20:55:06] <renesis> 3 bends, eleminate the low joint, tab the top joint to locate, hold with 2 or 4 screws
[20:55:20] <Tom_L> if you bent the T first then the C you could do it in one piece and get the bend angles you need
[20:55:23] <renesis> or weld or glue or whatever
[20:55:32] <Tom_L> then weld the top
[20:55:43] <renesis> yeah, T bottom bend first
[20:55:56] <gregcnc> we are looking at an existing part that had different assembly idea in mind when designed.
[20:56:00] <renesis> and you just get it so it doesnt interfere with the C bends
[20:56:09] <gregcnc> that's different than designing with somethign else in mind
[20:56:12] <zeeshan> gregcnc: lol
[20:56:20] <gregcnc> for real
[20:56:22] <zeeshan> damn designers man
[20:56:29] <zeeshan> :D
[20:57:14] <zeeshan> thanks for the ideas :P
[20:57:23] <gregcnc> https://www.thefabricator.com
[20:57:46] <zeeshan> rofl gregcnc
[20:57:47] <gregcnc> on the right track obviously, but hard to implement after the fact
[20:57:50] <renesis> that seems so janky
[20:57:57] <zeeshan> first image is the crucifix cutout
[20:58:12] <renesis> its got some tab trick to locate
[20:58:18] <zeeshan> i feel like that would work but its sketchy
[20:58:27] <zeeshan> if the load was perpendiular to the bolt axial direction
[20:58:40] <zeeshan> it'd just slip out of the crucifix cutout
[20:59:00] <Tom_L> you could add a pin
[20:59:24] <gregcnc> detail is here https://static.thefabricator.com
[21:00:15] <zeeshan> i think if we combine all the ideas from above
[21:00:23] <zeeshan> the C and T piece need to be formed from one piece
[21:00:33] <gregcnc> yes
[21:00:34] <zeeshan> the place we were talking about welding at the top flange
[21:00:43] <zeeshan> youd use this cross cutout
[21:00:56] <Tom_L> possibly yes
[21:00:57] <gregcnc> looks like thigs would overlap though
[21:00:58] <XXCoder> that'd be 2 less nut
[21:00:58] <zeeshan> it'd just be there for some more strength
[21:01:11] <Tom_L> you'd have to get the bends right
[21:01:14] <zeeshan> at the end of the day all design is tetris
[21:01:16] <gregcnc> well maybe
[21:01:17] <zeeshan> :)
[21:01:24] <gregcnc> yeah
[21:01:37] <gregcnc> have fun
[21:01:49] <gregcnc> oh, when will that lathe be running?
[21:01:56] <Tom_L> hahaha
[21:01:58] * zeeshan decides to go with a solid block of steel
[21:02:01] <zeeshan> :)
[21:02:02] * Tom_L ventures a guess
[21:02:09] <zeeshan> what lathe
[21:02:37] <XXCoder> that large lathe machine you bought to restore to full function
[21:03:00] <gregcnc> did you scrap it to park the wife's car?
[21:03:08] <zeeshan> i cast it into a base for my mill
[21:03:32] <zeeshan> i have exciting plans for that lathe
[21:03:34] <gregcnc> do I remember spindle issues with the mill?
[21:03:46] <zeeshan> no spindle issues
[21:03:55] <gregcnc> maybe someone else
[21:04:06] <zeeshan> horizontal tool changer issue
[21:04:15] <zeeshan> it was leaking through the rotary union
[21:04:17] <zeeshan> all replaced
[21:04:22] <gregcnc> cool
[21:04:27] <XXCoder> isnt yours have removable head so it can be vertical or horzional mill
[21:04:30] <gregcnc> have any work?
[21:04:31] <zeeshan> ya
[21:04:36] <zeeshan> no time for work
[21:04:47] <zeeshan> day job takes all the time now!
[21:04:59] <Wolf_ITX_> day jobs suck
[21:05:22] <gregcnc> putting too much effort in, slow down and you'll have plenty of time to get the lathe running
[21:05:33] <zeeshan> gregcnc: its an investment in myself
[21:05:45] <zeeshan> if i learn i can apply it to other things
[21:05:52] <zeeshan> the thing that really bothers me about my lathe
[21:06:04] <zeeshan> and also older machinery in general is these ancient boxways
[21:06:07] <zeeshan> they're garbage
[21:06:20] <zeeshan> they work, but they will wear again eventually
[21:06:25] <zeeshan> modern stuff has nice linear bearings
[21:06:28] <sync> box way is best way
[21:06:32] <zeeshan> you wear em, change em out
[21:06:35] <zeeshan> done
[21:06:45] <sync> better than dovetails for sure
[21:06:46] <zeeshan> i dont have time for this scraping stuff
[21:07:00] <gregcnc> oh how bad was it?
[21:07:02] <zeeshan> i think big linear bearings bear boxways
[21:07:08] <zeeshan> gregcnc: it's not worn out badly
[21:07:13] <zeeshan> just speaking out theoretically
[21:07:30] <gregcnc> nobody fixes them
[21:07:47] <zeeshan> i have the itch for a modern machine
[21:07:59] <gregcnc> they just make the operator program 3 tapers while trying to hold a few tenths on long part
[21:08:11] <zeeshan> haha
[21:08:40] <zeeshan> the main reason im excited about the lathe project is
[21:08:53] <zeeshan> im going to be messing with rockwell ethernet ip drives
[21:09:14] <zeeshan> and planning to use VPL servos
[21:10:09] <gregcnc> keep us updated
[21:10:17] <gregcnc> i have to go
[21:12:57] <zeeshan> cya
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[21:18:36] <XXCoder> free tap wrench plans https://www.youtube.com
[21:18:50] <XXCoder> doubt I will need it i dont like that style tap lol
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[21:28:20] <Rab> XXCoder, me neither...I can't see an advantage, or why anybody would prefer it. I guess it's intrinsically balanced, if that helps the feel?
[21:28:40] <XXCoder> maybe its better when tap is quite large
[21:28:47] <XXCoder> i only have hand tapped small diameter ones
[21:28:59] <XXCoder> including that riciously long and thin one lol
[21:29:15] <XXCoder> rad was less than mm yet it was inch long in depth
[21:29:59] <XXCoder> machine tool is 5 inches long before it turns into inch long tapping part
[21:30:06] <XXCoder> its custom
[21:32:22] <Rab> I have a 3/4-14 NPS tap I regularly use in plastic, but it's a pain. I made a holder to chuck it in a power drill, but the runout is awful. I'm thinking of building a special little rigid tapping machine just for that one operation.
[21:36:24] <XXCoder> could use one of those cheap cnc machines for that?
[21:37:24] <pfred1> I have a cheap CNC machine
[21:37:43] <Rab> It's a lot of torque at the start, although it's just a through hole in a polycarbonate enclosure.
[21:38:30] <Rab> I was thinking about one of those cheap chinese 4th axes, with the chuck.
[21:39:22] <pfred1> I'm wondering where my cheap Chinese diamond hones got off to
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[22:36:28] <Wolf_ITX_> hmm crap, I think I need to redo this linux box, cant get hostmot2 to work
[22:54:49] <pfred1> redo?
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[23:21:35] <Wolf_ITX_> reinstall or something
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[23:36:34] <elmo40> why would a reinstall help? did you mess with config files?
[23:53:13] <Wolf_ITX_> what config, running a hacked together mint install, I think I installed a few things wrong