#linuxcnc | Logs for 2019-01-29
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[02:52:11] <Loetmichel> mornin'. Somehow my google-fu is low today. Anyone an idea how to urge a Hp laserjet M452dn to do a calibration run? it has a few mm of colour shift.
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[02:58:20] <sensille> Loetmichel: http://h10032.www1.hp.com page 110?
[02:58:34] <Loetmichel> got it already, thanks
[02:58:51] <Loetmichel> seems i am not fully awake, it was where it should be, just didnt see it in the menues.
[02:59:13] <sensille> probably just wasn't there when you looked the first time
[02:59:30] <sensille> the universe acts strangly in the morning
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[03:08:34] <Loetmichel> sensille: indeed
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[03:13:22] <Deejay> moin
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[05:09:46] <jthornton> morning
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[05:16:35] <XXCoder> morning
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[06:26:14] * Loetmichel just went to the car, searching for a few Thumbdrives that have fallen out of my pocket. cleaned out the back seat and trunk while i was at it. Result: three notebooks standing here charging back up... one Lenovo E520, one Japanese manufacturer "Gallery B-212", one Lenovo E6510 :-) ... somtimes i am a wee bit messy ;)
[06:30:32] <sensille> they've probably been there for a reason ...
[06:32:29] <XXCoder> lol
[06:32:44] <Loetmichel> sensille: reason is that i am a bit forgetful
[06:33:25] <Loetmichel> every time i do a journey where i need a notebook on the destination i pack one into the car... and then forget to get it back out when i am back home :-)
[06:33:43] <XXCoder> man how many notebooks do you have? lol
[06:34:54] <Loetmichel> 12
[06:35:02] <Loetmichel> working ones
[06:36:40] <XXCoder> wow. i guess it comes from having tech job
[06:38:57] <sensille> anything newer than core2?
[06:38:58] <Loetmichel> indeed
[06:39:30] <Loetmichel> sensille: only one with a P3, two with Core2, rest I* of several generations
[06:39:45] <sensille> not bad
[06:40:40] <Loetmichel> the three i have "found have I7-920, I7-2640(26**) and an I5 with 2.8ghz, forgot which series
[06:41:22] <Loetmichel> so not THAT old :-)
[06:41:46] <Loetmichel> and all my notebooks apart from the P3 have 4gb at least
[06:47:41] <Tom_L> 19°F, Hi 43
[06:47:59] <Tom_L> Lo 12
[06:50:19] <sensille> Loetmichel: mutliple notebooks just means you have to search all of them if you're missing a file
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[10:08:57] <JT-Shop> index
[10:08:57] <russian_troll> JT-Shop: The #linuxcnc index http://www.isaeff.net
[10:08:57] <c-log> JT-Shop: The #linuxcnc index http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81
[10:10:59] * flyback is watching
[10:11:01] <flyback> DIRTY CANUCKS
[10:11:03] <flyback> DIRTY CANUCKS
[10:11:18] <flyback> man those plasma cutters are awesome
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[10:20:00] <JT-Shop> hmm mesaflash stopped working
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[10:28:45] <jthornton> glad the one in my 7i96 configuration tool works
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[11:37:41] <Deejay> back with ipv6 now
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[11:52:30] <Jymmm> Amazon returns buy the pallet... https://www.youtube.com
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[12:25:07] <fragalot> gloops: https://imgur.com
[12:27:18] <rmu> hehe
[12:27:51] <gloops> yes a series of votes later today could determine the outcome of Brexit
[12:27:57] <rmu> somebody invent the egg-unbeater
[12:28:16] <fragalot> oh yeah I forgot that was today
[12:28:26] <gloops> ammendments to stop no deal etc, it may well also determine whether civil order is maintained here
[12:28:53] <fragalot> is there an outdoor webcam outside parliament? :P
[12:30:17] <gloops> probably lol, i think it may take a few days for the reality to sink in, to those leavers who have been promised for 2 years that we leave on march 29, tommorrow they might well be waking up to the reality that we are not leaving
[12:30:37] <fragalot> I'm just hoping for a delay for personal reasons :P
[12:30:50] <fragalot> June would be good.
[12:31:01] <gloops> probably going to be some kind of delay i think
[12:31:44] <rmu> a delay till june can't really hurt
[12:32:03] <fragalot> gives seabourne freight some time to work out a lease for a boat
[12:32:04] <rmu> a longer delay would open the question what to do with elections in may
[12:32:12] <gloops> oh i dont know, a lot of people will be very suspicious of any delay
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[12:32:25] <gloops> people in the UK anyway
[12:33:17] <Loetmichel> fragalot: thats surprisingly accurate
[12:33:43] <gloops> the remaniacs plan is obviously - vote down any deal, time and again, lobby for en extension, vote down any deal again, extension etc
[12:33:54] <gloops> eventually another referendum - remain
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[12:34:38] <rmu> yeah, that is obvious
[12:34:50] <rmu> but what is the plan of the leavers
[12:34:57] <fragalot> to leave at any cost
[12:35:37] <rmu> don't think so
[12:35:45] <gloops> the ERG group were pretty certain there was no way round article 50s final date - march 29th, so they vote down any deal and let the clock run out
[12:35:53] <rmu> but it seems everybody has a different the red line
[12:35:54] <fragalot> rmu: the real question is: which leavers?
[12:36:16] <fragalot> the "leave" vote could have had any number of different reasonings behind it, depending on which public figure they listened to
[12:37:10] <gloops> ERG is about 80 MPs, DUP is 12, if those groups could back May shes only about 30 votes short - if
[12:37:22] <rmu> ERG?
[12:37:42] <rmu> euro remainer group?
[12:37:44] <gloops> european research group - the hard brexit tory MPs
[12:37:55] <fragalot> comical
[12:38:32] <rmu> i got the impression DUP is opposed to hard brexit because that would virtually guarantee "troubles"
[12:38:35] <gloops> it is known as Carry on Brexit lol
[12:38:57] <rmu> but what do i know
[12:39:07] <fragalot> https://www.youtube.com <== she's summing it up quite well
[12:39:19] <gloops> the DUP will take no deal/hard brexit, they see no problem at all with WTO so far as the border goes
[12:39:48] <fragalot> have they actually looked at the WTO rates?
[12:39:48] <gloops> (what they might be hoping for is the EU/Ireland to put troops on their side)
[12:40:32] <fragalot> not to mention the overhead that comes with it
[12:40:33] <gloops> the standard WTO rates are a bit steep but they will only apply where no trade agreement is made
[12:40:50] <fragalot> yeah, but trade agreements take years
[12:41:42] <gloops> sometimes, interim arrangements can be made for essentials or big stuff Trump says he wants a US-UK deal by 2020
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[12:41:52] <Loetmichel> gloops: another referendum with remain will not work
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[12:42:10] <gloops> Loetmichel no i dont think it would solve anything
[12:42:12] <Loetmichel> EU will not take them back
[12:42:26] <fragalot> another referendum, sadly, is just not a viable option
[12:42:37] <gloops> at best the polls are only showing a narrow win for remain anyway, the division will be same
[12:43:24] <rmu> no, the brexit will and has to happen one way or another
[12:44:05] <rmu> opportunity for another referendum will be in 25 years
[12:44:20] <rmu> +-
[12:44:24] <rmu> the question is
[12:44:47] <rmu> will the time until some definitive deal is made be more or less chaotic
[12:44:50] <Loetmichel> rmu: that is out of the question anyway. the question is only "will it be hard and sudden or bearable for the brits with some new deals with the EU
[12:45:51] <gloops> difficult to speculate, May is in an impossible situation
[12:46:07] <fragalot> she really is
[12:46:17] <fragalot> kudos for sticking with it though, i'd have given up ages ago :D
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[12:46:37] <gloops> she has shown some guts not many would deny her that
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[12:50:59] <Loetmichel> indeed
[12:51:02] <Loetmichel> guts she has
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[13:05:35] <Deejay> re
[13:06:29] <Deejay> using ipv6 and ssl now :)
[13:07:21] <Tom_L> expecting an attack?
[13:07:35] <Deejay> just going with time ;)
[13:07:36] <fragalot> Deejay is just wary of people listening in
[13:08:03] * Deejay feels being stalked by everyone ;)
[13:08:28] <Deejay> and just because i am paranoid, it does not mean that they aren't after me!
[13:08:56] <Tom_L> that's just it... they are!
[13:09:15] * Deejay fears
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[13:34:28] <fragalot> I wonder if I could make a belt oil skimmer with one of those BBQ spitroast turners :D
[13:34:50] <fragalot> i've found some cheap US ones, but I can't find one in the EU for under €350 inc. VAT
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[13:36:28] <gloops> belt oil skimmer?
[13:36:42] <fragalot> https://www.hogetex.be
[13:37:13] <gloops> what does it do?
[13:37:29] <fragalot> continuously scoops out the foreign oils from my coolant sump
[13:38:21] <gloops> ahh
[13:42:29] <rmu> fragalot: use automotive wiper motor
[13:42:52] <fragalot> I think i've got a few industrial 24V geared DC motors lying around
[13:43:00] <rmu> something like that https://www.pollin.de
[13:43:55] <fragalot> they look pretty easy to build tbh, all the designs i've found so far just use a weight at the bottom & a pulley at the motor with a wiper on it
[13:44:06] * fragalot adds this to the list of things to make
[14:01:16] <fragalot> this is kinda annoying
[14:01:23] <fragalot> what is "amendment A"? :P
[14:03:08] <gloops> oh some garbled nonsense Corbyn came up with
[14:03:21] <gregcnc> the pump I was looking for was for skimming oil
[14:03:36] <gloops> erg and dup have pledged support for the brady ammendment
[14:04:23] <fragalot> found it on the website
[14:05:00] <fragalot> yeah that one's going to fail
[14:06:10] <fragalot> 5 - 10cm of snow predicted tonight
[14:06:17] <fragalot> "or possibly more" ._.
[14:06:39] <fragalot> gregcnc: why do you need a pump to skim it? or is it to get it moving about?
[14:06:46] <gregcnc> -32°C tonight and tomorrow
[14:06:54] <gloops> mainly down to Brady and Coopers ammendments
[14:07:05] <gloops> Bradys will go through by the look of it
[14:07:23] <fragalot> gregcnc: normally if we get 20cm of snow, it's like this https://pbs.twimg.com
[14:07:30] <gloops> saw that on TV gregcnc, possibly -50?
[14:07:35] <fragalot> gloops: what does brady entail?
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[14:07:43] <gregcnc> windchills
[14:08:09] <gloops> bradys calls for re-opening of negotiations on the irish backstop with the EU
[14:08:23] <gregcnc> not going to be -50°C near Chicago, Minnesota maybe
[14:08:55] <gloops> -30 is like an hour or 2 outside, your lungs are damaged
[14:09:22] <fragalot> gloops: you mean remove the bits that the UK itself proposed from the agreement? :D
[14:09:23] <gloops> if youre sleeping on the streets, youre dead
[14:10:16] <gloops> fragalot may was stupid to accept the backstop, she was under extreme pressure for time and the EU ruled out any other options, she should have made her stand then
[14:10:55] <fragalot> gloops: according to the EU's lead negotiator, most of the backstop issues are proposals fomr the UK itself
[14:11:12] <fragalot> it's not about "accepting" it, it's about having proposed it in the first place
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[14:11:27] <gloops> i knew someone who worked in industrial freezers -28C, i think they could only do 1.5 hour sessions in the freezer before having an hour out
[14:12:22] <gregcnc> https://www.youtube.com
[14:12:38] <gregcnc> these usually use a floating skimmer
[14:12:42] <gloops> fragalot i cant remember now, i do remember the UK proposed various technological solutions which the EU rejected
[14:12:53] <fragalot> because they are not possible
[14:13:09] <fragalot> as explained by the negotiator in the video I linked earlier
[14:13:21] <gloops> they are possible but did not exist at the time - UK said they would be ready by march 29
[14:13:30] <fragalot> what if they aren't?
[14:13:50] <fragalot> gregcnc: fancy setup
[14:13:50] <gloops> corbyn loses
[14:14:15] <gregcnc> those are ~500USD. I'm making something
[14:14:20] <gloops> fragalot this borderless setup requires some trust and goodwill from either side
[14:14:31] <fragalot> gregcnc: simple belt skimmers are more than that here
[14:14:55] <fragalot> gloops: trust means nothing if it can't be put down on paper
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[14:16:30] <gloops> but this is the irish, they will argue forever, never ever concede anything, never compromise, its a special case
[14:16:36] <fragalot> I doubt amendment O will pass too
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[14:16:48] <gloops> this one could be close
[14:17:58] <fragalot> I think the "no deal must be ruled out" makes it difficult to vote for for many
[14:19:41] <phaxx> gloops: we don't need to concede anything - brexit is your idea. :)
[14:20:10] <phaxx> 'we' being the entire EU, not just the Irish.
[14:20:37] <gloops> phaxx the irish are going to be stuffed by the EU the minute the UK is out
[14:20:58] <gloops> however, the door is always open to joining the UK
[14:21:06] <fragalot> lol
[14:21:21] <phaxx> I doubt that'd be appealing to many, given the history.
[14:21:39] <phaxx> NI and Scotland breaking away from the UK are both much more likely, I'd say.
[14:21:46] <gloops> your 12% corporate tax will gone within 12 months
[14:22:05] <gloops> unless you join us
[14:22:19] <phaxx> that's been at risk for a long time as it is, it's not terribly relevant to brexit.
[14:22:47] <gloops> yes, you can keep it, we'll see to that
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[14:27:58] <gloops> oh that was the scottish ammendment, got them mixed up
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[14:43:33] <gloops> voting on Cooper ammendment, this is the biggie
[14:43:37] <fragalot> amendment q is an ambitious one, lol
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[14:44:14] <fragalot> gloops: I thought they were on amendment p right now? or did I hear wrong
[14:44:38] <gloops> i might be wrong lol, i thought this was Coopers
[14:44:49] <fragalot> oh it IS b
[14:45:16] <gloops> this could be close
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[14:46:01] <fragalot> after reading it, i'm not entirely sure what they are after
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[14:46:14] <fragalot> other than stating "guys. seriously."
[14:47:17] <gloops> this one is up to 9 months delay, shocking really but the opposition is behind it
[14:47:32] <fragalot> I see no mention of any delays in it
[14:48:49] <gloops> this would guarantee parliamentary time for a private members’ bill drafted by Cooper that would extend article 50 to the end of 2019 if Theresa May failed to secure a deal by late February.
[14:49:03] <fragalot> I see
[14:53:46] <fragalot> I'm all for i and j as alternatives.
[14:53:47] <fragalot> :P
[14:54:35] <gloops> I might pass
[14:55:57] <gloops> Cooper fails
[14:56:53] <fragalot> this has no chance does it? :P
[14:57:22] <gloops> not going by the results so far
[14:58:03] <fragalot> thing is.. regardless of any of these amendments, it still has to be agreed with all EU member states too
[14:58:46] <gloops> yes, have to get a bit closer to the deadline i think, before anyone blinks
[15:04:23] <gloops> i think the erg are demonstrating their power - they brought mays deal crashing down, but the moment ammendments to delay are tabled, they back her, and when they back her, she wins
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[15:11:44] <fragalot> closer than i'd have thought
[15:13:41] <gloops> if this one fails, no deal is a real possibility
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[15:26:30] <fragalot> close one
[15:26:43] <gloops> advisory only though
[15:27:17] <fragalot> obviously
[15:28:07] <gloops> EU will take note though
[15:30:48] <gloops> although their deal lost 200 odd votes, no deal just lost by 8 votes lol
[15:31:20] <fragalot> yeah, but those 200 votes could be for wildly varying reasons
[15:36:15] <gloops> https://www.xe.com
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[15:41:24] <fragalot> which vote was this?
[15:42:46] <gloops> brady
[15:43:02] <gloops> backstop to be replaced
[15:43:20] <fragalot> Should be fun.
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[16:11:55] <CaptHindsight> gregcnc: https://www.accuweather.com
[16:13:08] <Deejay> are you on vacation? ;)
[16:13:09] <JT-Shop> I think I just ruined all my parts by drilling the hole in the wrong place
[16:13:40] <fragalot> JT-Shop: oh no :(
[16:14:00] <gregcnc> Bahh, I told my wife it's summer in antarctica
[16:14:28] <JT-Shop> nope optical delusion on my part
[16:15:55] <MarcelineVQ> happy kind of error
[16:17:03] <CaptHindsight> ever make a mistake ona part but the mistake made it better?
[16:17:15] <fragalot> Daily. :D
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[16:20:32] <Joe_Hildreth> I have a questions about stepper driver timing. I have drivers without timing information. I have an oscilloscope. Is there a method or procedure that I can use to determine what the timing specifications might be?
[16:21:09] <JT-Shop> CaptHindsight: never, they always come out bad when I make a mistake
[16:23:08] <CaptHindsight> Joe_Hildreth: start with them long, maybe 10mS each and then shorten them until they stop working...
[16:23:25] <CaptHindsight> then make them slightly longer so they are stable over time and temp
[16:23:43] <Joe_Hildreth> What do you mean stop working, like missing steps?
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[16:24:07] <CaptHindsight> stop responding to Step/Dir
[16:24:17] <CaptHindsight> which stepper driver is this?
[16:24:59] <CaptHindsight> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org
[16:25:00] <rmu> i would just configure "conservative" settings and test the hell out of it
[16:25:25] <JT-Shop> Joe_Hildreth: http://linuxcnc.org
[16:25:42] <CaptHindsight> some of the cheapest boards are in the 150uS range for pulse widths
[16:26:08] <Joe_Hildreth> I would have to look. At work right now. It is a chinese driver, with limited information. It is opto coupled which I know would increase the timing parameters. The reason I ask is I am still working on tutorials, and I was wondering if you could actually test and benchmark a driver to see what the timing requirements would be.
[16:26:43] <Joe_Hildreth> Thank you JT-Shop for the link.
[16:27:25] <CaptHindsight> look for a part number on the driver chips and optos, those are aslo clues
[16:27:44] <CaptHindsight> aslo=also
[16:28:05] <FinboySlick> Any of you messed with that controller that turns RC motors into AC servos? I was wondering how well it would do with cordless drill brushless motors.
[16:28:08] <CaptHindsight> though aslo sounds like as slow
[16:28:47] <CaptHindsight> whats an RC motor?
[16:29:01] <rmu> remote controlled model car
[16:29:12] <FinboySlick> Brushless motors they normally use in drones and RC cars.
[16:29:28] <Connor> You talking about the Brushless motors?
[16:29:30] <CaptHindsight> ah brushless DC
[16:29:35] <gloops> they were making spindles from RC motors in diycnc, well the person is in here as well
[16:30:07] <Connor> ODrive ?
[16:30:18] <CaptHindsight> gloops how many HP are they?
[16:30:24] <gloops> you can get half a dozen nema17s for ÂŁ20 though
[16:30:58] <gloops> CaptHindsight none, i think they were for pcb milling, but they got them going quite fast, 50k i think
[16:31:03] <CaptHindsight> of fractional HP spindles, cheese cutters
[16:31:26] <fragalot> CaptHindsight: you can get 12HP RC brushless motors
[16:31:30] <FinboySlick> Connor: Yeah, Odrive.
[16:31:42] <CaptHindsight> fragalot: no kidding
[16:31:56] <CaptHindsight> you can also get 50 HP non crap spindle motors
[16:32:07] <rmu> but they won't work as a spindle for very long at that power output
[16:32:12] <fragalot> CaptHindsight: indeed. :D
[16:32:22] <fragalot> rmu: not without spending at least half of that on cooling, no
[16:32:34] <CaptHindsight> so the ODrive is for toy routers?
[16:32:42] <JT-Shop> Joe_Hildreth: also you can use the calibration tool to test different settings
[16:32:50] <Connor> https://www.youtube.com
[16:32:54] <gloops> they use those wheelchair motors too
[16:33:02] <rmu> fragalot: and about 1k in bearings ;)
[16:33:16] <fragalot> lol
[16:33:33] <Connor> Not with those motors. They're pretty big.
[16:33:46] <CaptHindsight> so like buying a small Chinese spindle
[16:34:45] <rmu> what about direct drive washing machine motors
[16:35:20] <rmu> (as servo, not as spindle)
[16:35:20] <gloops> theyre for washing machines
[16:35:28] <FinboySlick> rmu: I'm not sure the ODrive would run those too well.
[16:35:47] <Joe_Hildreth> JT-Shop: You are talking about the axis test on Stepconf? Or is there another tool?
[16:35:49] <rmu> in stuttgart someone tried to hook one up to stmbl IIRC
[16:37:01] <JT-Shop> Joe_Hildreth: the calibration tool in Axis
[16:37:28] <Deejay> gn8
[16:38:08] <JT-Shop> Calibration - Starts the Servo Axis Calibration assistant. Calibration reads the HAL file and for every setp that uses a variable from the ini file that is in an [AXIS_n] section it creates an entry that can be edited and tested.
[16:38:50] <JT-Shop> it says servo but you can change stepper things too so long as they are in the ini
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[16:40:17] <Joe_Hildreth> JT-Shop: Thanks for the info. I will check that out when I get home tonight.
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[16:43:27] <CaptHindsight> ah so the ODrive is a brushless DC motor drive? still not sure since the website skips that detail
[16:45:06] <CaptHindsight> https://docs.google.com
[16:46:32] <CaptHindsight> what is the difference between an RC brushless motor and a brushless DC motor? Is there a definition of a RC brushless motor somewhere?
[16:47:36] <Connor> https://odriverobotics.com
[16:48:12] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: Taht's essentially what I was wondering.
[16:48:31] <Connor> No difference. Except maybe for the mounting.
[16:48:35] <CaptHindsight> so rather than expalin anything clearly I have to look at the schematics myself to make sense of wtf they are doing
[16:48:41] <Connor> They have both out runner and in-runner
[16:49:02] <CaptHindsight> thank you public schools!
[16:49:23] <FinboySlick> Connor in-runner/out-runner is magnet inside or outside the coils?
[16:49:40] <MarcelineVQ> the rc ones all seem to have quite open (to air) bodies as well
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[16:50:33] <Connor> outrunner, the magnets are on the outside of the and they spin while the coils are stationary. in-runner, the magnets are on the shaft while the coils are on the outside.
[16:51:03] <Connor> in-runners look like traditional DC motors.
[16:51:22] <Connor> They're most common on RC cars.
[16:51:34] <Connor> out-runners are the ones for Drones..
[16:51:47] <Connor> I used one in my 3lb battle bot for it weapon.
[16:52:15] <gregcnc> RC motor are generally made as cheap as possible except for a few makes
[16:52:48] <Connor> Well.. some yes.. the competition ones aren't.
[16:52:48] <gregcnc> they are generally rated for short duration use and as light as possible often with large cooling holes
[16:53:15] <gregcnc> few will sacrifice a Neu like I did to make a spindle
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[16:54:17] <FinboySlick> Well, time to go home. Have a good one people.
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[16:54:47] <gregcnc> a few of the Chinese motors are pretty good
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[16:55:10] <gregcnc> quite a few are junk, and then there is everything else
[16:56:30] <gloops> what would the advantage be of RC motor over purpose stepper motor?
[16:56:40] <gregcnc> power
[16:56:52] <rmu> speed if you need it
[16:57:17] <gloops> well those are real advantages, and the disadvantages?
[16:57:21] <gregcnc> Plain cables, large openings for coolant chip ingress are things you need to consider
[16:58:09] <andypugh> RC motors don’t give you any position control.
[16:58:15] <rmu> no real bearings. completely open. built for short term use.
[16:58:25] <rmu> you would need an encoder
[16:58:37] <andypugh> And tend to only give rated power if there is a huge great fan on the front.
[16:58:46] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: they put encoders on them, so noobs get to play with that fun
[16:58:49] <gregcnc> life isn't really a problem if decent bearings are installed
[16:59:23] <CaptHindsight> so it is for people who don't have much value for their time
[16:59:33] <rmu> low voltages mean huge currents
[16:59:38] <gregcnc> yes rating take into consideration the generally short operating time and large cooling available
[17:00:36] <andypugh> Talking of motors, do I need this? https://www.ebay.co.uk
[17:01:05] <gregcnc> I vote yes
[17:01:13] <XXCoder> big 4th axis? or 5th axis?
[17:01:33] <MarcelineVQ> could make a rotating house
[17:01:51] <MarcelineVQ> keep the sun in your kitchen all day
[17:01:52] <andypugh> I made an offer of ÂŁ150 and he came back with ÂŁ175
[17:02:23] <CaptHindsight> nice rotary servo, might have a brake as well
[17:02:25] <andypugh> It isn’t obvious from the advert but the drive and programmer are included.
[17:02:40] <XXCoder> yeah just dont know how to configure
[17:02:48] <CaptHindsight> http://www.nsk.com
[17:02:52] <XXCoder> doesnt really say if guy accessed and checked
[17:02:52] <gregcnc> 137nM stall torque
[17:03:37] <CaptHindsight> I'd get it at that price
[17:04:19] <CaptHindsight> the manuals decipher the part numbers
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[17:04:50] <CaptHindsight> might have an absolute encoder
[17:05:41] <CaptHindsight> RS1010FN001 standard motor
[17:06:01] <CaptHindsight> page 23
[17:06:23] <rmu> harmonic drive?
[17:07:04] <CaptHindsight> ask for a clearer picture of the controller part number
[17:07:33] <andypugh> 40 kg!
[17:08:08] <andypugh> max 180 rpm, so I suspect there is a harmonium in there
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[17:11:13] <andypugh> No, the catalogue says “Direct Drive” so I assume they are a high pole-count brushless.
[17:11:28] <rmu> aka stepper motor
[17:12:00] <andypugh> Except three-phase
[17:12:17] <andypugh> (Not that 3-phase stepper motors don’t exist)
[17:14:39] <CaptHindsight> no gears
[17:15:10] <andypugh> It looks like a fun thing, but at 40 kg I don;t know what I would so with it.
[17:15:10] <CaptHindsight> did you the spec for accuracy ion arc seconds?
[17:15:28] <andypugh> The encoder resolution is something like 614,000
[17:16:15] <andypugh> +/- 2.1 arc seconds repeatability, 60 arc seconds accuracy
[17:17:59] <andypugh> So, 0.02 degrees accuracy and 0.0005 repeatability, as I read it.
[17:18:45] <andypugh> I wish I knew what I wanrted it for
[17:19:37] <gregcnc> don't you have piles of stuff that really cool and just cheap enough to add to the pile?
[17:19:40] <rmu> mod your office chair
[17:20:07] <andypugh> gregcnc: Yes. I have lots of that sort of thing, like this blasted Faro arm I keep falling over :-)
[17:20:49] <gregcnc> I've reached the point where I pass stuff up
[17:22:00] <CaptHindsight> 4th 5th axis
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[17:23:42] <CaptHindsight> wheel balancer
[17:24:06] <CaptHindsight> 3d print custom cake decorations
[17:24:16] <andypugh> I have a 4th axis. I am not sure that my mill table could lift 40kg. (Actually, I am sure that it can, but I would be very low on headroom under the spindle with that thing on top_
[17:24:49] <CaptHindsight> centrifugal cake icing remover
[17:26:07] <CaptHindsight> make a centerless grinder
[17:27:57] <andypugh> What I want to make is a slotting head for my mill, with a CNC-controlled rotation of the cutting bit.
[17:28:26] <andypugh> I am sure it would be ideal for cutting splines, and possibly shaping helical internal gears. If I ever needed to do that. Which I won’t.
[17:35:38] <CaptHindsight> nice motor for Archivist
[17:36:04] <CaptHindsight> hope he is happy and well
[17:42:07] * jthornton just ordered a pound of grape pez...
[17:42:31] <andypugh> Not seen or heard from Archivist for a while
[17:42:35] <Jymmm> the candy?
[17:43:07] <Jymmm> andypugh: I heard there was some falling out?
[17:43:19] <andypugh> between?
[17:43:31] <Jymmm> I honestly dont know
[17:43:53] <CaptHindsight> I just heard that he was fine and working. he just left the webs and IRC's.
[17:44:01] <Jymmm> ah
[17:44:03] <Jymmm> ok
[17:44:35] <andypugh> Maybe he got a girl. You would never seem me again if that happened to me.
[17:45:29] <Jymmm> andypugh: grow me?
[17:45:32] <CaptHindsight> I printed 3 pages using Firefox from a website, they came out really tiny and in the upper left corner of the print...
[17:45:32] <Jymmm> one*
[17:46:05] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: That’s a punishment fro printing a web site rather than sending the URL
[17:46:21] <CaptHindsight> I go into the Firefox printer settings and the default was 16 pages per page :) obviously nobody checks this stuff before they release
[17:47:00] <Jymmm> forefoz printing kinda sucks much of the time sadly
[17:47:21] <gregcnc> my wife usually manages to print a paragragh on 16 pages
[17:47:22] <Jymmm> You have to go into READER mode
[17:47:24] <CaptHindsight> this is a new install of Fedora
[17:47:47] <CaptHindsight> haven't been surprised by all the default settings yet
[17:48:12] <CaptHindsight> gregcnc: hah, yeah, that is fun as well
[17:53:55] <jthornton> gregcnc: my wife prints all the blog comments when trying to print a recipe lol tons of pages
[17:54:45] <gregcnc> printing from the web is a nightmare. I PDF if I need it.
[17:55:20] <Jymmm> gregcnc: Even pdf priting from firefox is bad
[17:55:42] <Jymmm> from chrome is a bit better, but not by much
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[18:28:55] <andypugh> Woot! up to date with the forum. It feels like a chore sometimes.
[18:29:07] <infornography> https://cdn.discordapp.com
[18:29:35] <infornography> sometimes I miss the 90s internet
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[18:30:08] <andypugh> Aye, I remember when there were only a dozen web-sites. (really!)
[18:31:40] <andypugh> We got an email at work saying “there is this thing called the world wide web, you need this software called “Mosaic” and you can type in these adresses. NCSA was obviously one, and CERN, and also the CIA World Factbook and the Vatican Library.
[18:32:08] <infornography> :O fancy
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[18:37:02] <gregcnc> I watched a bit of the nat geo show valley of the boom https://www.nationalgeographic.com
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[19:10:56] <CaptHindsight> gregcnc: what perspective is it from?
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[19:15:09] <CaptHindsight> ah, it's not a documentary
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[19:37:54] <ziper> CaptHindsight, have you done resin vacuum infusion before?
[19:43:13] <SpeedEvil> resin infusion is neat.
[19:43:19] <SpeedEvil> Only low vacuum here.
[19:43:27] <SpeedEvil> as of yet.
[19:43:41] <gregcnc> what are you making?
[19:45:52] <ziper> how do you make sure all the fiber actually gets wetter out?
[19:45:55] <ziper> wetted*
[19:46:10] <SpeedEvil> ziper: it's visually obvious when it's all wetted out if you use transparent stuff
[19:46:25] <ziper> carbon doesn't
[19:46:38] <SpeedEvil> yeah - that'd be less obvious.
[19:47:06] <SpeedEvil> Do you mean vacuum bagging, or pulling a hard vacuum with something submerged?
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[19:48:08] <Tom_L> funny, i watched a 'how it's made' on carbon boots using that method
[19:48:11] <ziper> submerged in what?
[19:48:23] <Tom_L> vacuum baging
[19:48:26] <SpeedEvil> ziper: resin.
[19:48:33] <Tom_L> then injecting the resin in the bag
[19:48:48] <ziper> i've just been doing regular wet layup bagged after, but after reading more infusion looks rather nice
[19:49:36] <ziper> take your time setting up the fibers, less mess, less fumes, can use a faster cure resin, less resin consumption (?)
[19:50:01] <SpeedEvil> It's basically you use the quite large ~10PSI or whatever delta between the resin source and the porous layer to drive resin through the layup.
[19:51:05] <SpeedEvil> The porous layer gets 'choked' by the resin getting to it and mostly stops pulling, with only limited amounts flowing out through it into the mat that has a dual purpose of sopping up the resin and giving a space for the air to move.
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[19:52:09] <ziper> I didnt think infusion used bleeder cloth
[19:53:26] <CaptHindsight> ziper: since I make epoxies, urethanes, polyesters etc. i can modify them to suit just about any application
[19:53:50] <Tom_L> https://www.youtube.com
[19:54:10] <CaptHindsight> if your epoxy is to high a viscosity and doesn't easily pull through you can try to heat it
[19:54:25] <Tom_L> 3:00 starts the bag process
[19:54:25] <CaptHindsight> but that might also accelerate the rate of cure
[19:56:29] <SpeedEvil> Just don't try to thin it. :)
[19:56:33] <SpeedEvil> Sigh.
[19:56:34] <ziper> oh man
[19:56:42] <ziper> they left the bag in the shoe
[19:56:56] <CaptHindsight> it gets messy but they could have coated the pieces of CF vs spray adhesive before bagging
[19:57:09] <ziper> and massaging the resin everywhere isn't exactly practicable on a boat
[19:57:44] <Tom_L> a guy i know here used to make boats too
[19:58:05] <Tom_L> he had a large vacuum compressor in the back of the shop he used when bagging them
[19:59:15] <CaptHindsight> I've noticed that lots of composite fabricators work with a very limited range of epoxies
[19:59:41] <ziper> I use the cheap stuff
[19:59:44] <CaptHindsight> they seem to order from the "epoxy warehouse" and thats as far as they go
[19:59:48] <ziper> I didn't know there were options
[19:59:49] <Tom_L> i've watched thru the window but never been in the composites lab at the vo-tech here
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[20:00:18] <ziper> does anyone use anything besides BPA based?
[20:00:21] <Tom_L> they've got a pretty good size autoclave i know
[20:00:23] <CaptHindsight> ziper: we can blend it from thin as water to thick as clay
[20:00:39] <ziper> whats the thickener?
[20:00:45] <CaptHindsight> we even have water based epoxies
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[20:01:11] <Tom_L> ot, i saw the dreamlifter take off with a load from spirit today
[20:01:17] <Tom_L> kinda eerie
[20:01:40] <CaptHindsight> ziper: it's not a thickener....
[20:01:58] <ziper> ok, what is the constituent that changes the thickness?
[20:02:07] <ziper> viscosity, rather
[20:02:09] <CaptHindsight> you just decide on which components to use to meet the specs you require
[20:02:48] <CaptHindsight> it's not that there is one "epoxy" base everyone starts out with and then adds thickener or thinner
[20:03:09] <ziper> is the more viscous stuff stronger?
[20:03:30] <CaptHindsight> I have epoxy components that are so thick that you can stand on top of the open drum at room temp
[20:03:36] <CaptHindsight> others are like water
[20:05:08] <CaptHindsight> ziper: it depends om how flexible you require it, tensile strength, glass transition temp etc
[20:05:36] <ziper> I have an application where i want to make a hinge. what resin should I use?
[20:05:53] <CaptHindsight> you might combine 2 components or 10 to formulate a blend
[20:07:16] <CaptHindsight> some epoxies cure as hard as a rock but are brittle
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[20:08:59] <SpeedEvil> 'Oh - you heated your object that has been working fine for 10 years over the temperature you have ever heated it before?' It is now brittle!
[20:09:05] <andypugh> And some rocks are so soft that that’s a terrible metaphor :-)
[20:09:07] <SpeedEvil> Fun.
[20:10:05] <ziper> animation of the hinge http://www.fastacraft.com
[20:11:03] <ziper> but I don't want to have the gaps. I want the hinge to be built into the very top laminate, and for the bottom to have a little flexible flap that covers the gap
[20:11:22] <CaptHindsight> others are rubbery and flex 300% or more before they break
[20:11:38] <ziper> ok, which?
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[20:12:11] <CaptHindsight> ziper: where are you located?
[20:12:20] <ziper> united states, florida
[20:13:03] <CaptHindsight> https://www.compositesone.com can you purchase by the pail or drum?
[20:14:18] <ziper> not really. that one part is such a small part of the whole I could make a hundred boats with a gallon of flexible stuff
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[20:16:21] <CaptHindsight> all the links I'd have are to raw material suppliers in 200Kg drums
[20:16:23] <ziper> is there a correlation between viscosity and cured stiffness?
[20:16:35] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if you can reasonably impregnate a short line with silicone.
[20:16:48] <CaptHindsight> SpeedEvil: sure
[20:16:58] <SpeedEvil> For the hinge.
[20:17:09] <CaptHindsight> silicone, urethanes, polyesters, acrylics etc
[20:17:32] <CaptHindsight> https://www.hexion.com
[20:17:59] <CaptHindsight> https://www.easycomposites.co.uk!/resin-gel-silicone-adhesive/epoxy-resin/ef80-flexible-epoxy-resin-system.html
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[20:20:00] <ziper> thanks. judging by the product descriptions -- no correlation
[20:21:29] <andypugh> easycomposited have some very good Youtube videos. There is a great one on going from 2D cad templates to 3D foam patterns, for example, using hand tools. (and it is a concept that scales as big as you want)
[20:22:48] <andypugh> In fact, here it is. Well made video and a very interesting process.
[20:22:49] <andypugh> https://www.youtube.com
[20:22:55] <CaptHindsight> https://www.smooth-on.com
[20:24:04] <ziper> thanks andy
[20:24:17] <Tom_itx> where would we be without youtube
[20:24:19] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: how's that goin to bed by midnight going? :)
[20:24:26] <Tom_itx> heh
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[20:24:34] <ziper> CaptHindsight, I assume you are familiar with fumed silica thickener?
[20:24:44] <CaptHindsight> ziper: yes
[20:24:49] <andypugh> Oh, that was yestrdays plan. And it was boring waiting to fall asleep at 3am as I always do
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[20:25:12] <Tom_L> don't mess with a good pattern
[20:25:28] <ziper> how badly does it degrade the mechanical properties? Is it worth having already thick epoxy that only needs a little bit of silica to keep from sagging?
[20:25:55] <SpeedEvil> On a random note - does anyone have any thoughts on where to get cheap glass balls in the 100um range, of a consistent size, without having to sort them myself? I'm wondering about making vacuum spaced glass.
[20:26:03] <CaptHindsight> fumed silicas, glass spheres, hollow glass beads, glass fiber etc etc
[20:26:40] <CaptHindsight> ziper: depends on what you are starting with and where you want to go
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[20:26:56] <Tom_L> SpeedEvil, https://www.cospheric.com
[20:26:58] <Tom_L> maybe
[20:27:08] <CaptHindsight> you can find papers on % of filler vs strengths
[20:27:10] <SpeedEvil> https://www.pilkington.com
[20:27:11] <Tom_L> i suppose you want a uk link
[20:28:09] <CaptHindsight> i have an application where I need to increase the glass transition temp and some other electrical properties
[20:28:36] <andypugh> I remeber they were a thing in Physics at school. A jar of identically sized glass spheres for low-friction experiments. Perhaps the name will come back to me
[20:28:38] <CaptHindsight> a filler may extend the glass temp since the filler will not soften
[20:28:48] <CaptHindsight> it depends on the curve required
[20:29:01] <CaptHindsight> elongation vs temp
[20:29:09] <CaptHindsight> or flex vs temp
[20:29:21] <andypugh> But while we are extoling the virtues of easycomposites: https://www.easycomposites.co.uk!/resin-gel-silicone-adhesive/filler-powders-and-additives/general-fillers-and-additives/glass-bubbles-microballoons-microspheres.html
[20:29:34] <SpeedEvil> Tom_L: none of the above seem to have close size grades.
[20:29:49] <SpeedEvil> Tom_L: I guess I can sort myself, just annoying.
[20:30:31] <CaptHindsight> glass bubble will increase viscosity and lower the density
[20:31:35] <CaptHindsight> https://www.3m.com
[20:32:13] <SpeedEvil> Hmm. I hadn't checked if their solid glass balls come in size grades.
[20:32:23] <CaptHindsight> Tom_L: http://multimedia.3m.com page 10
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[20:32:34] <CaptHindsight> SpeedEvil: ^^
[20:33:11] <CaptHindsight> and page 11
[20:33:35] <CaptHindsight> OK now tell me some of your secrets
[20:33:47] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: I think I want solid - I have to do the numbers. Spread over a pane of glass, lay other pane of glass over it, seal edges, pump to hard vacuum.
[20:34:22] <CaptHindsight> SpeedEvil: all kinds of solid particles to use as fillers
[20:34:42] <CaptHindsight> silica, ceria, boron nitride, aluminum etc etc
[20:35:15] <CaptHindsight> SpeedEvil: making a laminate with epoxy and glass?
[20:35:19] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: No.
[20:35:31] <CaptHindsight> oh as a mold?
[20:35:33] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: no resin involved. Look at the pilkington spacia link. And glass, not glasfibre
[20:35:41] <SpeedEvil> Vacuum insulated windows.
[20:35:59] <ziper> what do the spheres do?
[20:36:08] <Tom_L> create space
[20:36:09] <SpeedEvil> ziper: stop the panes touching with 14PSI load
[20:36:19] <ziper> duh
[20:36:28] <CaptHindsight> ziper: hollow ones will thicken and lower the density of the resin
[20:37:12] <SpeedEvil> And make the resin stiffer, if you're doing that with them.
[20:37:13] <ziper> CaptHindsight, what determines cure time? why can't I just add more hardener like I can with polyester?
[20:37:16] <SpeedEvil> (for glass bubbles)
[20:37:37] <CaptHindsight> ziper: chemistry and temperature
[20:38:26] <CaptHindsight> ziper: are you using MEKP with polyesters?
[20:39:05] <SpeedEvil> ziper: if you add less or more hardner with epoxy, you do not get a reaction that goes to completion, and are left with some unreacted hardner or resin, which damages the properties.
[20:39:15] <SpeedEvil> (in general)
[20:40:05] <ziper> ok, and what is the difference in components that causes some epoxy mixes to be faster than others?
[20:40:27] <SpeedEvil> ziper: A magician has cast haste on it.
[20:40:36] <CaptHindsight> ziper: thats functionality
[20:40:50] <ziper> CaptHindsight, I only use polyester on cheap stuff, but I understand it well enough. i'm more interested in the epoxies
[20:40:57] <CaptHindsight> mono, di, tri, quad, octo etc
[20:41:34] <CaptHindsight> the epoxies will have branches that crosslink in parallel with each other
[20:41:34] <ziper> is that also inextricably linked to the ability of the resin to handle higher temperatures, both during and after curing?
[20:41:45] <CaptHindsight> more branches the faster it cures
[20:42:08] <ziper> I see, perfect explanation
[20:42:17] <CaptHindsight> that gets into the shape of the molecules
[20:42:35] <CaptHindsight> picture a zigzag epoxy vs straight line
[20:42:53] <CaptHindsight> the zigzag can stretch or compress
[20:44:33] <CaptHindsight> the temp an epoxy radically changes it's flex is a combo of factors
[20:44:49] <CaptHindsight> you mix different types to get what you want and or fillers
[20:45:24] <CaptHindsight> one component may easily flex at lower temps and 5%b of that in the formula may be what you want
[20:45:29] <CaptHindsight> in another 15%
[20:47:30] <CaptHindsight> so you blend all these soft. hard, low temp high temp components together to get what you want
[20:48:08] <CaptHindsight> and there's thousands of research papers on what people have tried with their results
[20:48:25] <CaptHindsight> sometimes it's intuitive, sometimes it's not
[20:50:08] <CaptHindsight> some suppliers have 10 or so basic components and they show you how to blend them to more or less of a feature
[20:50:12] <ziper> ok, i'm almost sated. About chemistry: am I correct that BPA is the most common one?
[20:50:33] <CaptHindsight> flex, hardness, tensile strength, higher/lower tg etc
[20:50:46] <CaptHindsight> likely
[20:51:14] <ziper> are there any others suitable for boatbuilding?
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[20:55:54] <CaptHindsight> boats use a gel coat at the outer water barrier
[20:56:19] <CaptHindsight> most epoxies are not water soluble after cure
[20:56:44] <CaptHindsight> boat building is mostly cost driven
[20:57:07] <CaptHindsight> the resin and gelcoat suppliers have those down to near a commodity
[20:58:17] <ziper> and BPA is the cheapest?
[20:58:22] <CaptHindsight> http://www.interplastic.com
[20:58:53] <CaptHindsight> likely acrylated epoxies are lowest cost
[20:59:09] <CaptHindsight> some are <$2/lb
[21:00:46] <CaptHindsight> https://www.alibaba.com
[21:01:05] <CaptHindsight> BPA looks ~$3/Kg so pretty close
[21:01:28] <CaptHindsight> $1.40/Lb
[21:02:12] <ziper> haha i'm sure thats high quality stuff
[21:02:24] <CaptHindsight> it works
[21:02:50] <CaptHindsight> if it's for industrial it's fine
[21:03:05] <CaptHindsight> just not FDA applications
[21:03:26] <ziper> even high performance stuff?
[21:03:41] <CaptHindsight> yes
[21:03:55] <CaptHindsight> they make cheap copies of just about everything
[21:04:18] <CaptHindsight> high perf tend to be high flex and that gets pricey
[21:04:46] <ziper> what about matching the properties of the epoxy to that of the fiber? I hear about it but I don't know what that actually entails
[21:04:58] <CaptHindsight> they don't make everything so US makers focus on $40/lb components that hardly anyone uses
[21:05:51] <CaptHindsight> or components that are cheaper to buy and make here vs ship from China
[21:07:42] <SpeedEvil> Edible scented epoxies.
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[21:37:17] <norias> are we making carbonfiber stuff?
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[22:32:44] <ziper> yes
[22:34:41] <ziper> norias, spars, hulls, hydrofoils
[22:34:50] <norias> HI
[22:35:02] <norias> sorry, had caps lock on for work stuff
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[23:00:42] <CaptHindsight> I need to work on a CF weaving machine for non-planar composites
[23:01:27] <Tom_L> on what scale?
[23:01:57] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com
[23:02:11] <CaptHindsight> auto panel size
[23:03:09] <CaptHindsight> think insects, bees, spiders, silk worms
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[23:04:21] <CaptHindsight> 9-axis winding https://youtu.be
[23:04:24] <roycroft> i weave tartan fabric on an old canadian jack loom
[23:04:40] <roycroft> that would probably not scale down to cf
[23:05:05] <CaptHindsight> CF yarn
[23:06:45] <CaptHindsight> 2D layers that are woven into 3 vs just a resin bond
[23:07:54] <SpeedEvil> shiny.
[23:08:16] <SpeedEvil> CF fabrication as your granmother would.
[23:08:39] <CaptHindsight> https://sc01.alicdn.com
[23:09:18] * SpeedEvil wonders what the % chance is.
[23:09:29] <CaptHindsight> https://healdsburgshed.com
[23:11:00] <CaptHindsight> if you can build small CF extruders
[23:11:01] <SpeedEvil> Empty it out of honey, add plaster of paris, burnout, recast aluminium, use for honeycomb reinforcements.
[23:11:20] <SpeedEvil> 'made with real honeycomb'
[23:11:41] <CaptHindsight> same for DNA
[23:11:50] <CaptHindsight> tiny extruders
[23:13:14] <SpeedEvil> Come up with a electrically controlled array with ribosome or polymerase, and profit.
[23:13:35] <CaptHindsight> need more funding
[23:17:38] <CaptHindsight> a microscale silk extruder is much easier
[23:17:45] <CaptHindsight> but not as strong
[23:18:23] <CaptHindsight> but 3d silk composites could be made into complex shapes
[23:20:30] <CaptHindsight> https://inchemistry.acs.org
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[23:24:02] <CaptHindsight> https://www.cam.ac.uk
[23:24:25] <SpeedEvil> Silk is fucking complex alas.
[23:26:07] <SpeedEvil> https://www.kay.biochem.utah.edu - is neat. Attempting to make an oppositely chiral e.coli bacteria. _all_ the starting machinery has to be made artificially as you can't use anything biogenic.
[23:41:57] <CaptHindsight> roycroft: have a pic of your loom?
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