#linuxcnc | Logs for 2019-03-12

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[13:03:38] <fragalot> ~https://imgur.com/gallery/caOk2sx <== ffs boeing get your act together
[13:05:02] <SpeedEvil> http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu keeping up quality journalism.
[13:05:23] <fragalot> xD
[13:06:13] <fragalot> maybe they meant light in ankh-morpork where it travels at the pace of molasses through the smog
[13:06:18] <gregcnc> that's just as good as the rest of the news
[13:07:18] <gregcnc> local channel spun 3 minutes about a video of a gate not being down for a train creeping threw a crossing
[13:07:56] <gregcnc> last sentace was the rail co was conducting a test and an engineer stopped traffic prior to entering the intersection
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[13:22:43] <Rab> You won't believe this one weird FreeCAD trick: https://forum.freecadweb.org
[13:23:46] <fragalot> long live parametric drawings
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[13:34:26] <sensille> Loetmichel: lost an endmill here: https://i.imgur.com is it possible that this happened because i didn't bother the keep the chips out?
[13:36:05] <SpeedEvil> if there are enough, they can wedge, and deflect bits enough to snap
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[13:48:09] <_abc_> Hi. Are there sane comparisons between MACH3 and linuxcnc? I have someone pestering me about Mach3 because he is so into windows (and clueless). He also intends to run Mach3 on a substandard 10 year old machine which was slow then, under XP. Please provide me some articles for me to shoot him down with,
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[13:49:49] <roycroft> xp is eol/eos
[13:49:51] <roycroft> now you're done :)
[13:53:09] <jym> XP VM FTW
[13:53:23] <jdh> let him. move on.
[13:53:42] <roycroft> if i'm honest, there's nothing inherently wrong with using mach3/windows for cnc control
[13:53:55] <roycroft> if that's what the user is comfortable with that might be the best solution
[13:54:15] <roycroft> however, 10-year-old hardware and an ancient version of windows is not something i would ever recommend
[13:54:30] <jym> _abc_: It's more than likely he's just intimidated of the linux learning curve, moreso than anything else
[13:54:48] <Loetmichel> sensille: looking at the upper right corner of your workpiece i would say that your z axis didnt pull out when the machine wanted to move x0y0
[13:55:01] <roycroft> i would posit that the ancient hardware would likely run linux/linuxcnc better than it can run windows/mach3
[13:55:39] <jym> My P2 runs TurboCNC just fine -shrug-
[13:56:24] <Loetmichel> jym: my first CNC ran with dos-PCNC and an 80486
[13:56:41] <Loetmichel> (and it still does)
[13:56:49] <jym> Loetmichel: TurboCNC can run on a 286 actually
[13:57:00] <Loetmichel> yes, it can
[13:57:58] <jym> Loetmichel: It's actually pretty impressive the memory manager he wrote in it
[13:58:08] <Loetmichel> you need about 30Mhz minimum though or your servo loop will be eating pretty all the computing power there is
[13:58:16] <sensille> Loetmichel: at least it ripped the stock out of the fastening
[13:59:13] <Loetmichel> sensille: have you ever had the axes standstill and worked the spindle thru the RPMs?
[13:59:42] <Rab> _abc_, you catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar. Just burn him a liveCD or USB stick and invite him to try it out.
[13:59:54] <Loetmichel> i had MASSIVE step loss while spindle is ramping up /ramping down until i put a shield on it and some clip ferrites
[14:00:28] <sensille> what do you mean? the spindle is running constantly at 24kRPM, i still switch it by hand
[14:00:44] <Loetmichel> i meant: change the frequency at the pot
[14:01:06] <sensille> no. i just cranked it up when i got it :)
[14:01:12] <Loetmichel> i had certain RPMs where the steppers would start to move all on their own slowly
[14:01:25] <Loetmichel> maaaan
[14:01:30] <sensille> ah, that way around
[14:01:38] <sensille> i'll try that
[14:01:43] <Loetmichel> start the spindle while the axis drivers are active
[14:01:47] <sensille> sounds funny
[14:01:50] <Loetmichel> and start changing the RPM
[14:02:06] <sensille> but do you think this can be related?
[14:02:17] <Loetmichel> those chinese VFDs are not really "EMI-filtered" ;)
[14:02:17] <sensille> haven't had any problems before
[14:02:56] <Loetmichel> it can be a problem if the spindle got load and produced more EMI because of more current
[14:03:59] <Loetmichel> also: check all the Stepper connectors
[14:04:19] <sensille> ok
[14:04:36] <Loetmichel> i had a couple fail on me after a few years, its not impossible that you have a few weak ones (the black "inline in cable" ones)
[14:05:59] <sensille> Loetmichel: first finished ones: https://i.imgur.com :)
[14:06:01] <Loetmichel> you can try to provoke it by starting the stemconf wizard again, "test" the z axis at max speed and +-20mm, than ramping the spindle RPM up and down FAST and try to wiggle all the connectors
[14:06:08] <Loetmichel> stepconf
[14:06:10] <Loetmichel> wizard
[14:06:21] <Loetmichel> you can HEAR if it stalls or loses steps
[14:06:22] <sensille> yeah
[14:06:39] <Loetmichel> whats that for again?
[14:06:40] <sensille> will do that as soon as that run's finished, thanks
[14:07:16] <sensille> some slacklining tool, to grip a slackline between 2 plates, with rubber in between an a rope through the holes
[14:07:29] <sensille> i'm quite proud how they came out :)
[14:09:03] <Rab> sensille, very nice. Are those powdercoated?
[14:09:27] <sensille> left, yes. right anodized
[14:09:42] <_abc_> Rab: the man is hooked and he has a "free xp install cd and license"
[14:09:50] <_abc_> his verbiage, not seen.
[14:10:21] <_abc_> jym: he already has 2 linux machines he uses sort of daily. But does not administer/work on.
[14:11:47] <Loetmichel> sensille: ah, "balancing"?
[14:13:02] <sensille> Loetmichel: https://souzslackline.com
[14:13:14] <sensille> something to do with balancing, yes
[14:15:37] <gloops> so you got the ally cutting going then sensille, looks fine to me
[14:16:26] <gloops> (steppers move on their own, noise/ground issue)
[14:19:44] <Rab> I want to do CNC engine turning with a cratex stick. But the cratex is consumable, so the "tool" length will change. Any ideas how to keep consistent pressure on a spindle?
[14:20:24] <Rab> I could use a spring-loaded tool holder, but I wonder if it's possible to monitor the Z-axis stepper current on plunges to maintain a consistent pressure as the tool shortens.
[14:21:30] <Rab> IOW plunge until step current starts to rise, I guess.
[14:21:41] <sensille> falls
[14:21:47] <Rab> Hmm, maybe it's easier to shim a strain gage under the motor mount.
[14:21:48] <SpeedEvil> Rab: see also applied science's latest video on youtube with EDM
[14:24:56] <weenerdog> could you put a very low resistor in the stepper power lead and measure the voltage across to derive the current (spitballing here...)
[14:26:26] <weenerdog> do any controllers have a pin you can use to sense the current? thats an interesting question you ask.
[14:27:24] <weenerdog> but you're gonna be dependent on how hard the tool crashes into the work before the current starts to go up
[14:27:30] <x2s> uhm, that's what ADCs do...
[14:28:36] <x2s> ADC+Shunt and you measure the current
[14:29:06] <weenerdog> sorry. i grow christmas trees by trade, and only mostly fuck up electronic thing :)
[14:30:12] <Rab> weenerdog, that would work. I believe it wouldn't take very many steps to see a decisive rise over the threshold of intrinsic resistance in the drivetrain.
[14:31:31] <fragalot> Loetmichel: wait you built a cnc that had EMI issues? shameful! :D
[14:32:13] <sensille> Rab: there are drivers that give you that information, like the tmc2160
[14:32:25] <fragalot> Rab: there are stepper drivers that have a constant torque setting, however I'm not sure how nicely they play along with linuxcnc without going crazy with scripts
[14:32:33] <sensille> measuring the current wouldn't help
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[14:33:30] <sensille> the more steppers work the less power they actually consume
[14:33:42] <sensille> standstill is worst case
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[14:34:12] <sensille> it depends on the load angle
[14:34:16] <Rab> sensille, plus I guess the driver is constant-current anyway.
[14:34:33] <fragalot> Rab: depends on the driver
[14:34:37] <fragalot> but generally, yes
[14:35:12] <sensille> reading some driver datasheets is quite insightful, for example the above tmc2160
[14:35:32] <Rab> L297/L298 in this case.
[14:37:26] <sensille> well, that is not that insightful
[14:41:34] <Loetmichel> fragalot: i bought a chinese CNC 6040... and had to redo wquite a bit of wiring before it worked like advertized ;)
[14:42:21] <Loetmichel> weenerdog: current thru a stepper is not linked to it having load or not
[14:42:43] <weenerdog> I know next to nothing about steppers and controllers (yet)
[14:43:01] <weenerdog> i was just flinging spaghetti at the wall to see if it sticks :)
[14:43:16] <Loetmichel> it will ALWAYS be the same current regulated by the stepper driver unless you go into RPM realms where the driver cant push enough current fast enough into the coils ( inductace problem, more voltage needed)
[14:43:47] <Loetmichel> inductance
[14:43:55] <Loetmichel> maaan my spelling sucks today
[14:43:59] <fragalot> you can however learn a lot by monitoring both the voltage & current at high resolution & speed
[14:44:49] <sensille> (or let a high-tech driver do it for you)
[14:44:56] <fragalot> sensille: exactly :D
[14:45:13] <fragalot> you could also just use a DC motor if constant force is what you want
[14:45:21] <fragalot> position it with a servo drive
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[14:48:46] <weenerdog> rab : what are you doing, polishing? or work?
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[14:54:37] <Rab> weenerdog, this, just for fun: https://www.cratex.com
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[14:55:17] <weenerdog> ahhhh
[14:56:44] <Rab> The traditional method is just to chuck the stick in a drill press, but CNC seems like it would produce better results for a lot less work. Also programmatic patterns.
[14:57:04] <fragalot> Rab: put it in a tapping head?
[14:57:10] <fragalot> to give you the springyness
[14:57:55] <fragalot> also, has anyone here ever modified linuxcnc to read in a load cell to adjust an axis position for constant-pressure?
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[14:59:43] <gloops> 99 pence bid (2 bids lol) https://www.ebay.co.uk
[14:59:50] <gloops> basically a free lathe
[15:00:20] <fragalot> it's useless though
[15:00:24] <fragalot> there is no chuck key :/
[15:01:02] <gloops> there is a line of thinking that those lathes are ideal for cnc conversion
[15:01:14] <gloops> ballscrew is shielded in the round bed
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[15:05:08] <fragalot> https://imgur.com <-- lol.
[15:06:20] <gloops> the vikings only drank ale, not water - good thing to do in those days
[15:07:04] <Rab> gloops, wonder if those have the same issues as round column mills. What keeps the cross slide from rotating, I guess there's a channel in the column analogous to ways?
[15:07:27] <gloops> use a keyway/channel on the bottom Rab
[15:07:36] <gloops> usually
[15:08:01] <Rab> Seems like a bad setup for rigidity.
[15:08:17] <fragalot> and repeatability
[15:08:44] <fragalot> there is a reason box ways & lathe ways have won
[15:09:11] <Rab> But I bet the mfg was able to economically offer a number of different "bed" lengths, using the same set of castings. ^_^
[15:09:31] <gloops> no real reason the round bed should be any less rigid, you need clearance on a square bed the same
[15:09:55] <fragalot> the V ways positively locate your lathe carriage on standard lathe ways though
[15:10:06] <fragalot> where-as a square key allows for wiggle room
[15:11:21] <Rab> I wonder if the bed is a cast iron rod, or a steel pipe.
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[15:16:43] <gloops> https://www.lancerregister.com
[15:16:52] <gloops> view of underside there
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[15:17:42] <gloops> ive got a round bed myford wood lathe, wood lathe is a slightly different beast though
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[15:19:19] <gloops> the ones with a slotted saddle - you can tilt the whole thing, useful by-feature
[15:20:14] <gloops> (bed is cast)
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[15:21:23] <Rab> Looks like cast iron.
[15:21:36] <Rab> err, right
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[15:22:48] <gloops> UKs brexit deal soundly rejected by parliament again lol
[15:22:50] <fragalot> gloops: delay in the lobbies, apparently
[15:23:02] <fragalot> guess you're ahead of my live stream :P
[15:23:11] <fragalot> and you RUINED it!
[15:23:13] <gloops> fragalot May lost by 149
[15:23:14] <fragalot> :D
[15:23:23] <fragalot> spoilers
[15:23:45] <gloops> we all knew it was going down heh
[15:23:50] <fragalot> gloops: I mean, both the parties that want to stay, AND the ones that want to leave vote no
[15:24:05] <fragalot> i'm surprised it's getting as many votes FOR the deal as it does, lol
[15:24:39] <fragalot> christ her voice is shot
[15:25:43] <gloops> she did that voice thing once before, at her big speech at the tory conference lol
[15:26:13] <gloops> not a job you can call in and say 'sorry i cant make it today ive got a sore throat'
[15:27:00] <fragalot> yea, she can have it, lol
[15:27:16] <Papagno> Hi at all. i have test on real machine and simulation a exsternal offset configuration , with OFFSET_AV_RATIO = 0.5. But have aproblem. the machine not respect G0 rapid velocity . in ini file i have max_velocity = 2 , but the machine run in g0 at value 1 . if change value OFFSET_AV_RATIO = 0.9 the machine run in g0 at 1.9 about. it's normal exsternal offset change value the g0 rapid ?
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[15:30:26] <gloops> where in the INI have got max velocity = 2?
[15:31:07] <gloops> the default rapid speed is determined by the...MV - near the top lol
[15:32:05] <Papagno> in axis[x] and join[0]
[15:32:35] <gloops> let me see if i have a config on this pc
[15:33:11] <Papagno> please test axis/exsternal_offsets/jwp_z.ini
[15:33:56] <gloops> TRAJ
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[15:57:29] <Papagno> Hi at all. i have test on real machine and simulation a exsternal offset configuration , with OFFSET_AV_RATIO = 0.5. But have aproblem. the machine not respect G0 rapid velocity . in ini file i have max_velocity = 2 , but the machine run in g0 at value 1 . if change value OFFSET_AV_RATIO = 0.9 the machine run in g0 at 1.9 about. it's normal exsternal offset change value the g0 rapid ?
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[16:06:02] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, if you get what we got today you're in for a doozie
[16:06:37] <Tom_itx> looks like you could be on the edge of it though
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[16:47:29] <JT-Shop> just starting to sprinkle here, got everything done I wanted to get done and Rusty is in the shop so when she cools down I can work on the 4 wheel drive actuator
[16:48:57] <JT-Shop> it may go north of me...
[16:49:03] <JT-Shop> famous last words lol
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[17:41:40] <Tom_itx> looks like round 2 is just moving in..
[18:12:17] <Deejay> gn8
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[18:14:40] <weenerdog> death to Ford!
[18:15:24] <weenerdog> putting a driver's side window in my pa's truck for him. gawd. they rivet everything and you have to grind them off
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[19:43:51] <jym> _abc_: ah ok
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[20:06:04] <Elmo40> if i go from a 30mm stepper to a 40mm stepper and the datasheet says it is only 0.4A more per winding, to use the stronger motors i need to increase the output of the step drivers?
[20:06:35] <_unreal_> you dont need to but you should
[20:07:00] <Elmo40> if i do not change anything, will the motors cause lag/skips or be the same strength as the smaller motors?
[20:07:07] <_unreal_> it could
[20:07:17] <_unreal_> ether it will show an issue or you wont even feel it
[20:07:30] <_unreal_> though using a larger motor I would suggest upping the current to match the motors needs
[20:07:53] <_unreal_> you'll notice problems most likely in the higher speed range if you dont up the amps
[20:08:17] <_unreal_> not saying you but you would be most likely to....
[20:08:19] <_unreal_> or heavy load
[20:09:01] <Elmo40> my end goal is faster speeds. i tapped out the little guys. just the whole gantry load and a light pass slowed them down too much.
[20:09:07] <gregcnc> if you are upgrading to get more performance, you may not get it if your don't drive it per spec
[20:10:02] <Elmo40> makes sense. need to feed the beast for it to push harder.
[20:10:13] <_unreal_> feed that beast
[20:11:20] <weenerdog> diesel stepper motors
[20:11:59] <andypugh> I think skunkworks K&T originally had hydraulic motors.
[20:12:07] <gregcnc> with a clutch and 18 speed?
[20:12:56] <weenerdog> word
[20:13:37] <gregcnc> there were some hydraulic servo machines I can only think of sounthbend magnaturn
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[20:19:09] <andypugh> I blame “This Old Tony” https://photos.app.goo.gl
[20:19:45] <weenerdog> lol
[20:20:07] <andypugh> Results are decent though: https://photos.app.goo.gl
[20:20:10] <weenerdog> This Old Tony and AvE rule
[20:20:27] <weenerdog> that is nice
[20:21:03] <andypugh> I think AvE is more of a fan of me than I am of him :-) (I am not subscribed to his channel, he is subscribed to mine :-)
[20:21:38] <weenerdog> lol cool
[20:23:03] <weenerdog> i've never subscribed to a chan on youtube
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[20:35:41] <flyback> artifical limb gets handjob.c rootkit https://www.youtube.com
[20:36:51] <weenerdog> wheezing trying not to laugh
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[21:02:00] <gregcnc> I need to look into phosphating. Basic chemistry is simple, but a few small additions reduce required temperature and time tremendously.
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[21:46:08] <dgarr> Papagno: if you read back: with OFFSET_AV_RATIO=0.5 and MAX_VELOCITY=2 the max planned speed is (1-0.5)*2=1 (units per second) for G0 (or any G code or jog motion) since these are conventional, planned moves.
[21:46:08] <dgarr> See paragraph 1.0 of: http://linuxcnc.org
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[22:42:16] <roycroft> so this motor i just bought is used, not nos as advertised
[22:42:28] <roycroft> it works ok, but the bearings are a little noisy
[22:42:51] <roycroft> what do you folks think would be fair compensation from the seller, should i keep it?
[22:43:05] <roycroft> i'm inclined to send it back at the seller's expense, but am willing to work with the seller
[22:43:12] <jdh> 30-50%
[22:43:13] <roycroft> it's a 3hp motor
[22:43:22] <roycroft> i paid $100 for it + shipping
[22:43:24] <jdh> single phase?
[22:43:27] <roycroft> 3 phase
[22:43:37] <roycroft> and my first thought is $50 would probably make me feel ok about it
[22:44:07] <jdh> how much is shipping back?
[22:44:41] <roycroft> i would cost $50 to ship it back
[22:44:43] <roycroft> it
[22:44:51] <roycroft> that's not how i came up with my number
[22:44:56] <roycroft> but it's an interesting coincidence
[22:45:16] <jdh> so you would still be out $50 shipping? or ?
[22:45:31] <roycroft> no, the seller would
[22:45:49] <roycroft> even though it was sold with 30 day return, buyer pays shipping, it was misrepresented
[22:46:08] <roycroft> my experience with ebay is that when a seller misrepresents something, ebay sends me a ups sticker and bills the seller
[22:46:14] <roycroft> and then refunds my money
[22:46:22] <roycroft> i don't want to open a case on this if i can help it
[22:46:33] <roycroft> i don't like doing that to sellers
[22:47:03] <roycroft> especially since i'm a seller myself - i am well aware of what they go through
[22:49:04] <roycroft> i've bought about 1000 items on ebay over the years, and have only left negative feedback once
[22:49:20] <roycroft> i always work things out or just write them off
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[22:50:09] <roycroft> the one time was when i bought some very expensive software that was listed as legit, and turned out to be pirated on a cd-rom
[22:50:12] <roycroft> with a crack key
[22:50:30] <roycroft> i returned that, got my money back twice (because the seller was a moron), and left negative feedback
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[22:54:48] <roycroft> the motor was in the factory box - i don't think the seller was trying to pull a fast one
[22:54:55] <roycroft> but it has obviously been rewired
[22:55:26] <Elmo40> the motor label says single phase?
[22:55:49] <roycroft> and inside the box was the original packing list from when it was delivered to lockheed-martin, and a manifest showing when it was put in service
[22:56:08] <roycroft> no, it is what it was listed as far as specifications
[22:56:21] <roycroft> but it was sold as nos and it is used, with bearings that are making a little noise
[22:56:37] <roycroft> it's the new vs. used thing that's the problem
[22:56:40] <roycroft> not the specs otherwise
[22:56:43] <Elmo40> i see
[22:56:51] <Elmo40> it has bolt marks on the feet?
[22:56:59] <roycroft> yes, of course
[22:57:11] <roycroft> and as i said, the wiring had been rearranged
[22:57:11] <Elmo40> crazy why they would list it like that
[22:57:25] <roycroft> i don't think it was intentional
[22:57:28] <roycroft> this is a big surplus house
[22:57:39] <roycroft> they move thousands of products every week i'm sure
[22:57:49] <roycroft> they glanced at it, it looked decent, it was in the original box
[22:57:52] <roycroft> they called it nos
[22:57:56] <roycroft> i don't blame them
[22:58:06] <roycroft> but i want them to make good on the mistake
[22:58:13] <Elmo40> send them a message saying you claim it to be used when they said it was nos.
[22:58:29] <Elmo40> and see what they will do
[22:58:29] <roycroft> i did
[22:58:39] <roycroft> and i did not specify how much of a refund i wanted
[22:58:48] <Elmo40> i'd give you 'store credit' towards another purchase.
[22:59:01] <roycroft> i just said that, because the bearings were noisy, i needed either a partial refund or a return at the seller's expense
[22:59:07] <roycroft> this is ebay
[22:59:12] <roycroft> "store credit" is not an option there
[22:59:17] <Elmo40> hence the quotes.
[22:59:30] <Elmo40> but they do sell other things that you might like.
[22:59:36] <Elmo40> if not, then ask for a partial refund
[23:00:18] <roycroft> i wish it were easy to figure out how much new bearings would cost
[23:00:27] <Elmo40> in the seller's eyes, they would rather keep the sale and offer credit towards another sale.
[23:00:29] <roycroft> but i don't have time to take it apart and find out what bearings are in it right now
[23:01:10] <Elmo40> 3Hp? not much at all. maybe $35 for the rear and max $60 for the front. If you go Timkin or the likes. Bearings are not all that expensive.
[23:01:21] <Elmo40> the time to do it costs more
[23:02:40] <roycroft> yes, and i don't mind the time
[23:02:52] <roycroft> i figured that $50 would probably come close to the cost of replacement bearings
[23:03:13] <roycroft> my preference would be to keep it
[23:03:18] <roycroft> it's a good, american-made motor
[23:03:40] <roycroft> to get a new "american" motor (which may well be made overseas, with a us label) would cost me $300-$400
[23:04:02] <roycroft> but i don't want the bearings to seize tomorrow afternoon
[23:04:36] <roycroft> and if they're noisy then the motor could seize any time between the next time it turn it on and infinity
[23:05:56] <roycroft> other than the noise it runs very smoothly
[23:06:25] <roycroft> i ran it at full speed (3450rpm) on the bench without clamping it down and it did not want to move around at all
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[23:59:14] <Elmo40> well balanced
[23:59:31] <Elmo40> that is one thing that imported motors suffer from.
[23:59:34] <Elmo40> shake